10 seconds back court violation?
 

Resuming play after a T.O. on opposite end of the court for the offensive team. Time remaining is exactly 1:00 minutes. Throw-in caught and clock starts properly. Offensive team is granted a time out, offensive team is still 5' in the backcourt and the clock reads 48.7 seconds. The C and L have definite knowledge that the clock started properly.

1. If you had been either the C or L would you have blown this violation?
2. During the timeout discussion, the T freely admitted that he wasn't aware of time on the resumption of play but stated that his count had not reached 10.

If your answer is no you wouldn't have blown this violation from C or L, would you have blown it if the clock had gotten to 45:00?

1. No. Not my call to make and clock starting and TC starting are not necessarily the same thing.

2. OK, then he/she needs to do better.

Peace

There's a specific FED case where the violation cannot be called (same as if it was called but the clock read :51).

In NCAA, C and L have joint responsibility with T on 10-second calls -- they use the shot clock.

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Bob,

Using Fed, when (:45, :40, "50) would you be comfortable putting a whistle on this play? Once you start making these kinds of calls, where does it stop - i.e. closely guarded plays, throw-ins, f. throws, etc....

I know that we use the shot clock in NCAAW to gauge the 10 second count (not a visible count), but I didn't think the NCAA men used the same rule? Or are you saying it is a reviewable call that can be over turned?

Curious to find out the answer!

New for this year, NCAA-M use the shot clock for the 10 second back court violation as well. Watch the games on tv, you will notice the officials no longer have a visible count.

I wish I still had time to watch games on tv! LoL

I would NOT be comfortable doing this as L or C in Fed.

That said, at some point, I would step in. You can't let, for example, a team hold the ball in the BC for 8:00 minutes.

It's Case Book 5.10.1 Situation B "If the count was not accurate or was not made, it cannot be corrected. There is no provision for the correction of an error made in the official's accuracy in counting seconds."

In NCAAW if we miss the violation it's over. We can't go back and deal with it much like any other violation.

Agreed. I was only answering the "can the C or L call the violation" question.

When did they add the ten second violation for NCAA W?

Start of the current season.

I would definitely blow this violation if I were the L or C, even in high school game. Of course, here in MA, it's a little easier to justify making that call, because we use a shot clock. So everybody knows exactly when 10 seconds has expired in the possession.

I agree with the people who say you can't call the violation once the TO is granted.

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Scrapper,

Wow! Are there other timing violations that you would step in and handle for your partner? For example, would you blow a closely guarded count out from under your partner if the shot clock indicated that the player had been closely guarded for 6 seconds? Throw in at 6 seconds?

I don't mean to ask these questions in an argumentative manner. I guess I'm just trying to understand how important this particular call is to you verses other violations?????

It's not the importance of the call -- it's an obvious, visible error.

I just don't understand why it took so long to use the shot clock instead of a visible count in order to get these violations.

CG count: i'm guessing, no, because whether a player is being closely guarded is part of the judgment here.
Throw in: No, because there is no situation where the shot clock is running during a throw in. Also, you've either got a situation where the clock hasn't started, or there is judgment involved in when the throw in started.

By Fed rule, I'm not getting this until it gets ridiculous (as bob indicates above). Even then, I'm more likely to blow it dead and have a quick chat with my partner, quietly, to make sure he's paying attention.

Table competency.

How would I know when the player first was closely guarded? I'm not officiating my partner's match-ups.

How would I know what the throw-in count is? I guess it would be possible to check the game clock at the start of the throw-in after a made basket, but really, how practical is it for me as the off-official to check the game clock at the start of every throw-in after a basket?

However, when everyone in the gym can see the shot clock at 20 seconds, it's obvious that the violation has occurred, even if my partner's count is a little slow. So -- especially if there is backcourt pressure -- I will get the violation.

As a practical matter, officials have been using the shot clock instead of their visible count for years. It's just in the rulebook now.

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Scrapper,

I see your and Rich's point about the shot clock. We don't use shot clock here but it was clear that the game clock was at 1:00 for resumption of play and was at 48.7 when it stopped for a granted T.O.

If no shot clock, but game clock did start properly - at what point, would you have blown this violation for your partner? 49.9? 49.0? Would you treat this situation the same as if you had had a shot clock?

Without a shot clock, I likely would not come in to call the violation at all, because it's unlikely that I checked the game clock when the ball was first possessed inbounds.

However, if the clock was stopped for time-out with 1:00 remaining, I suppose it's possible that I would notice this and have some definite knowledge about when the violation should occur. In that rare case, I would come get it at 0:49. But I think that's extremely unlikely.

I could see doing this with a shot clock, depending on who my partner was. No way I'm doing it without one, though, with only a 1 second lag. Until the Fed specifically allows us to use the clock for violations (probably about the time they add the shot clock in CO), I'm not going to step in on this.

As I said, it would be extremely rare (and in fact, I've NEVER done this in 21 years of officiating), but why exactly wouldn't you call this?

Everybody can see 1:00 on the clock after the time-out. You can see the ball possessed immediately inbounds. And you can see the clock hit 0:49. It's obviously a violation. It's just as obvious as if you had a shot clock, except that it's not on a separate clock.

If you would do it with a shot clock, I don't see the rationale for not doing it without one.

I'm wondering why the off-official is watching the clock instead of the players in his area... but that's just me.

I also have a time believing I would notice this as the off official...that being said if somehow I do notice and I glance at my partner and he has a count I'm going to trust him and let him do his job....if he is off in dream land with no visible count then I *might* go get it depending on the scenario as a whole.

One of my big pet peeves: Assuming that officials can only look at one thing at one time and that being aware of something else means they're looking there at the expense of their primary responsibilities.

Really? We can't multi-task? We don't have peripheral vision?

No, I agree that as the lead I would be aware of the time at inbound, glance to see the clock start, but just don't think realistically I would be giving it enough of my attention to notice when it dropped below :50 secs...maybe I'm wrong though and this is something I need to add to my "Work On List."

It's not an either or situation...you can glance at the clock and not spare the expensive of off-ball officiating. It's not different then glancing at the clock as an off-ball official when a whistle is blown.

Perhaps this is regional, but in the vast majority of my gyms, looking at the clock during play is a conscious act - not a peripheral vision act. Not something you can glance at even (again ... most gyms) - it's something you have to turn your head up and away to see, most of the time.

If you cant do this and officiate your primary at the same time, you are limiting your ability to spot milfs too.

It is different because you're looking away from play to do it during a live ball. Unless you're counting to yourself, how do you even glance up at the right time to see the violation?

Either way, you can either be looking at the clock or looking at play, but not both. Every split second spent on the clock is a split second not looking at your primary.

I'm stunned that people think their attention has to be *so* undivided.

How do you ever get an illegal screen in your primary when you're on the ball? I mean, every split second you're watching that screen you're not watching the ball handler.

There are times when the "competitive matchup" just isn't that "competitive" and you can steal a glance at the clock. (There are also times when you can't look away).

It's no different in that we should be paying as much attention to the players during a dead ball as we should a live ball. But it doesn't change the fact that (independent of whatever you would call a violation or not here), it's not that difficult (assuming there are two scoreboards, one on each side), to glance up and see the clock...especially if you're an off-ball official.

Very odd responses.

Let me ask this. My partner is walking up with the dribbler ... and has a count. I have pretty much everyone else until they get closer. I agree that it's certainly possible for me to stop watching my primary and glance over at the clock. But why am I doing this? Are we now advocating that it's part of our responsibility to babysit our partners? Unless the clock just happens to be in my peripheral vision, I see no need to make any undue effort to glance at the clock at this moment.

The responses above about being able to steal a quick glance at the clock all make perfect sense to me, but I feel I'm on the same page you are MD Longhorn. Sure, I could easily steal a glance at the clock, but why would it ever cross my mind as the lead to check the clock once I know it has started, we just inbounded, the trail has the ballhandler coming up the court, and I'm going to verify my trails 10 sec call?? I'm going to trust he can handle that one.

I see what everyones saying, it is certianly more than possible to do this, my view point is why would you...?

I think most clocks are on the walls behind (and to the side of) each basket. So, if you're L, on the endline, the clock is usually / often in your line of sight -- it's just "beyond" where you're usually focused.

And, frequently, the players in the FC aren't really doing anything in terms of denying the ball / setting screens until the ball gets to the FC.

So, you have time to glance at the clock.

There's a difference between seeing something in your primary with your peripheral vision and refocusing your eyes from 10-20 feet range to the 80+ feet range to look away from your primary.

You're abandoning your primary to fish in your partner's pond.

Maybe it's different in 3 man, but when 10 seconds is a possibility it usually means I'm pretty busy watching off ball for screens and holds as the FC players are desperately trying to get open for a pass. I'm also rarely on the endline in this situation.

Most every game I work, there is a clock at both ends of the gym. Not very hard to see the clock and my primary at the same time. :rolleyes:

The above is a just a statement of fact. Not indicative of what I would or wouldn't in the various situations being discussed.

I wonder if you guys know how misleading your peripheral vision can actually be? If as an official you *only* know whats going on in your primary at all times that must be very limiting IMO. Plus there are times that the clock isnt started, or the shot clock may be reset by mistake, and having an excuse that, "oh that's my partners primary" just doesn't cut it.

I'm not necessarily advocating calling a violation on this play as the off official. I'm only arguing the point that an off-official wouldn't be able to look at this clock in this situation.

Ditto.

I'm only arguing that an off-official can't look at the clock in a sufficient manner to call a violation.

A good off-official will check the clock after a made basket or a whistle. Next level officiating is clock-awareness.

Fair enough. I'm not saying that glancing at the clock is not possible. I'm saying that I can't imagine the need or desire to do so in lieu of just about anything else I might primarily or secondarily be responsible for.

video
 

Here's a ten-second call from the C, with yours truly starring as the man with the whistle. I even got fancy and superimposed a clock on the screen.


<iframe width="640" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/tuSOGs6Eo7M?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

IMO, that was to close for "help" in HS, was this college? And does college use the clock, not the count?

Yes, NCAAW D3.

And yes, the clock is used which is why I ended up making the call while the T was watching the ball handler and defender.

And C (and as a last resort L) can specifically get this in NCAAW.

What made it even more fun was the shot-clocks were having issues. There were actually four in use. Two on top of the backboards and two on the wall to the left at each end. The ones on the backboards kept sticking (e.g., they'd show "25" then "22" but wouldn't appear to be running in between). One of the backups stuck as well, despite the fact it was hard-wired. My R gave us simple advice: If you see two different times on the shot-clocks at one end, go with the one that's lower.

I only watch D-I women's, so I was under the assumption the ten-second violation was completely gone from NCAA Women's. Is that just a D-I thing, or does D-II have that violation?

NCAA-W ADDED the 10 second violation this year.

So you're the one viewer they get on their nielsen ratings?

I would have asked them to turn one set off, either the on the backboards or the one on the wall. It sucks that the sticking problem was occurring, but I think it got compounded by having two clocks on each end that could potentially have different times. I would rather have one set and deal with those problems than try to reconcile two sets on each end.

Apparently you are just a casual observer. Thanks for being a fan.

You trying to make APG jealous? LOL

I'm a dangerous man when I have time on my hands :)

JetMet, looks to me like you blew at 20. Isn't the violation supposed to occur at 19, due to 30 not being a whole second?

No, think about it like this:

20.0-20.9999 (1 sec).....21.0-21.99999....all the way to 29.0-29.99999 (10 sec)

It depends on the design of the clock. At least two styles exist....most, I think, operate like CountTheBasket is implying.

The clock, internally, starts at 30.000000 but only displays 30.

At the very instant it is turned on, it internally drops to 29.999999. However, it may either still show 30 (rounding up) or it may show 29 (rounding down). In either case, it will remain the same until is crosses below 29.000000.

In the case of a clock that rounds up for the display, the violation would occur the moment it shows 20. In the case of a clock that rounds down for the display, the violation would occur when it shows 19.

An easy way to tell is to see if the horn sounds the instant it reaches 0 (a clock that rounds up) or if there is a delay of 1 second between the horn reaching 0 and the horn (a clock that rounds down).

I believe that most, if not all, modern clocks operate by rounding up so that when it shows 0, it is truly 0.0000000 and not 0 and a fraction.....or that when it shows any whole number, it has passed below that whole number but not yet reached the next whole number.

Only if he was using an NBA shot clock.

MOST game clocks will "instantly" shift from 20:00 to 19:59 -- the tenths are still there, they just aren't shown; the clock therefore "rounds down." IF the clock doesnt' display tenths, then there will be a second delay between the clock showing 0:00 and the horn.

MOST shot clocks stay at 30 (or 35) for a second before changing. They round up. THe horn sounds as soon as the clock shows 0.

In any event, the rule / mechanics are clear to blow the whistle as soon as the clock hits 20 (or 25).

As Bob said, for NCAAW the violation occurs when the shot-clock reads :20 or on the tenth second after the ball is legally touched inbounds, whichever applies. That's the interpretation we received from the moment the rule was established.

By rule (1-19-2 to be exact) "two visible shot clocks are required, and shall be recessed and mounted on the backboard supports behind each backboard." 1-19-3 calls for an "alternate timing device" to be available if the visible clock malfunctions but there's the rub: the visible clocks did work. They jumped but the horn went off at 30 seconds. The fact the alternate - and hard-wired - shot-clocks were having issues made it a tough decision. Our R figured we were better off with all four active. One of the alternates had to be shut down because it started jumping worse than those on the backboards. At any rate, both teams were willing to deal.