Endgame controversy in No VA
 

Score 78-77 Team A ahead with 2/10ths of a second on clock. During TO, coach and asst coach of team A reconfirm with the officials that there is insufficient time for 'catch and shoot'.

Read the article below to see how it plays out over the next several days...

Controversial call raises questions about VHSL -- FairfaxTimes.com

Does anyone work in a state that would support setting aside the outcome of such a game, regular season or post season?

Here's the play...(video)
 

Thank goodness for cell phone cameras and YouTube.


<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/hWsmPpgyn6o?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

You hate to be “holier than thou” and say everyone on that crew needs to be docked a game for messing that up, but…everyone on that crew needs to be docked a game for messing that up.

Regardless of whether the crew told the visiting HC the home team couldn’t score on a catch-and-shoot, there isn’t much else for the officials to talk about among themselves during the time-out other than the time on the clock and the relevant rule.

A couple things about the article, which for me makes me question a lot of things about the writer or was not clear to someone not from that area.

First of all this is not a new rule that came from the NCAA or NBA as the article stated. This rule has been around in NF Rules for over 10 years. I am not sure the rule ever changed in my career that I have been working. And the shot clock changes had nothing to do with the current NF Rule.

Did the artcle say, "Does that mean that games in that area have an alternate?

If that is the case, how does no one on the crew not know that rule?

Peace

+1. I think I saw the trail was wearing a belt.

This is exactly why when there's a timeout in a situation like this, the crew gets together and discusses end of game situations...in this case...everyone should remind each other...no catch and shoot with .2 on the clock

Or how about at the varsity level this should be known, and doesn't really need repeating. Instead court coverage should be the conversation.

I can't imagine mentioning the catch and shoot rule would take so much time that you can't mention it and still go over court coverage.

The writer never alludes to this being a new rule. Completely the opposite.

I would guess he certainly meant "game clock modifications" in the 1990's regarding tenths of seconds, instead of shot clock--other than that it's a extremely well-detailed article by a sportswriter, with regard to rule delineation.

This is a direct quote from the article.

Maybe that does not completely suggest it is a new rule, but the rule for the shcot clocks to include tenths of a second is an NBA change a few years ago. NCAA has never change that rule or required tenths of a second on the shot clock.

The current NF rule came around the time when a Trent Tucker from the NBA (The Knicks) shot a game winner with less than .3 seconds on the clock against the Bulls. Soon after the NBA looked into the likelyihood of this and change the rule to .3. I will have to do a little more research on the details, but this did not have anything to do with the shot clock. The NF soon followed like either before I became an official or right after in the mid-90s.

The NBA rule is actually called the Trent Tucker Rule. Here is the link to some of the information. Trent Tucker Rule

Peace

The other part of this whole thing that just doesn’t compute is…okay, everyone had a brain f*** when the shot went up. Hard to believe but stuff happens. So the shot goes in and everyone on the crew…just…leaves? Everyone completely forgot before, after and during the shot that there was 0:00.2 on the clock when the play began? That’s tough to even fathom.

Even if they stay out there and have to wave it off they’re not going to get a beef from the home HC because *he* knew a catch-and-shoot wasn’t on the menu.


That's tough to do because you'd have teams lining up outside the state association's door to overturn results because of what they thought was "an obvious error by an official." That's why most protests aren't allowed. I think in this case they could argue a rule was ignored or misapplied - as opposed to an official's error in judgment - but it would still be tough.

No, the covering association provided the 3 floor officials and a trained clock operator.

The VHSL has made up its own rules on the fly before, now all of a sudden they have to follow the handbook.

But I digress.

Something is missing here. If the R did confirm with the coach that no try or tap can score, why did he allow the basket?

Additionally, why is the coach telling his players to guard "only the players the could receive a lob pass"? If I were a coach (and trusted my referees) I wouldn't even have my players on that half of the court. No try or tap can score, so why bother?

A tap could score...

or are you saying because the official said a tap couldn't score... so why bother?

Yeah a tap can score. If the offensive team knew that they probably would have attempted one, which made the defensive coach say only guard the lob and (probably) around the basket.

My bigger point is the disconnect between what the coach 'confirmed' and what the crew allowed.

I believe some of this game could have been re-played, around these parts.

If "it" was because of a missaplication of a RULE...our State powers may have re-played this game from the point the rule was ignored.

If "it" was because of an officials JUDGEMENT...our State powers would not have re-played this game from any point.

This, of course, if the proper protests were documented.

I also remember a similar situation a number of years ago (2002), Wisconsin at Michigan State I think, a shot with under 0.2 on the clock by Michigan State was disallowed and Wisconsin won by 1. The Badger win ended a long home win streak by Michigan State.

Link to article:
Lawrence Journal-World - Google News Archive Search
So maybe the NBA rule and the NCAA/NFHS rule may have similar parentage.

Read again

The quote from the article:

..."Lake Braddock coach Brian Metress had just called timeout to confirm with the referee that the only shot Annandale could get off in time WAS a tip. According to Metress, the referee confirmed it"...

Full Disclosure
 

My Association. Long discussion at the Meeting the other night. In this day and age of videos and social media, there is no hiding. We blew it. We are moving on as best we can and going forward.

It was a 2 point game, the defensive team put 3 tall players in the paint to prevent any type of lob. The in-bounder thus chose to throw it to his teammate behind the 3-point line.

What a nonsense statement. Why is court coverage any more worth repeating? Shouldn't that be known also? Isn't that covered in your pre-game?

This situation is exactly why the rule is worth repeating, so that no one has a brain cramp.

The times are changing, and they have been.

With YT, cell phone video, social media, etc, there has never been a greater responsibility to get it right. That's why training, etc. is so important.

Having said that, we are still human and make mistakes. None of us is Scott Foster or Monty McCutchen.

I would definitely support a Fed rule, or a state rule, that certain specific instances of end-of-game plays are reviewable by a committee after the fact. This would be one of them. Reverse the on-court decision of allowing the basket and change the outcome of the game.

Court coverage is the *last* thing we would cover in such a situation. If we don't know how to cover a court by now...

The catch-and-shoot rule is the ONE THING we *would* cover here.

I disagree, reiteration of help on threes to make sure it is a three, release of the ball versus horn, and most importantly if the shot is not going to be counted start waving it off immediately, not after the horn, and after its gone in. But since these guys didn't know that, ya in this case lets cover the .3 seconds rule. :rolleyes:

It's like covering the 10 second back court count at a dead ball.

Why does this need to be covered? Opposite table has the clock and since it has to be a tip, what else needs to be covered? If the ball is caught, the opposite-table official needs to come in strong and kill it.

The rest of the stuff you mentioned doesn't even apply in this situation.

I agree, it does not apply, but to this crew it did.

So don't discuss the pertinent rule, but discuss a mechanic a varsity crew should already know.

Yeah, great logical progression. :rolleyes:

Why not discuss both rules and coverages during the last timeout? It wouldn't take more than a few seconds anyway:

"Ok, remember now, less than 0.3 on the clock, only a tap can score. OPPOSITE_TABLE_OFFICIAL_NAME has clock, keep focus on your primary, and as soon as this is over, let's GTFO through that door".

Can't take more than 10 seconds to get through all of that.

I sure hope not. Unfortunately with the number of games being played, I a sure there are rules being kicked somewhere every night.

1. who has the time/is going to review all these games

2. are they going to replay every game in which a rule was kicked

3. are they going to replay them even if the rule was kicked in the first minute of the game

4. when and how would they find time to replay all those games

the idea of replaying the end of this game or any other game would lead to a complete cluster ****

Pic your nit . . .
 

Is it "less than .3 seconds" or is it ".3 seconds or less"?;)

Nit found
 

In the OP, it is immaterial. Article clearly states there was .2 seconds.

For the record, the ruling speaks to ".3 seconds or less".

Really? You roll your eyes at covering the .3 seconds rule when there's less than .3 second... yet you advocate discussing help on threes when a 3 point shot is not a possibility? :rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

You should also cover jump ball mechanics at the same time - they will be of equal value to you in this situation.

Step one, fire the officials working the game.

Yep, their entire careers should end because of a single mistake.

One egregious mistake. Further, I did not say that their "careers" should end. They can go to camps next summer, prove themselves competent again, reapply, and start working their way back up from the bottom of the ladder.

Around here, these three guys would have a difficult time finding an assignment chair willing to have them work varsity basketball games for this mistake. In the college conferences I work, I can say for sure they would be removed, probably permanently, from staff for this mistake.

When I first started officiating, there was a fairly well established varsity official who made an egregious rule mistake in a game and he never worked another varsity game. Non-shooting foul called against V1. H is not in the bonus and foul by V1 is sixth team foul. V coach complains about the call and gets technical. H coach convinces referee on the game that they should get to shoot the 1 and 1 as well as 2 free throws for the T because V team now has 7 team fouls. The referee, ignoring the advice of his two partners, decided that the H coach is correct and allows H to shoot 4 free throws. The referee never worked another HS varsity game.

I'm sure they're glad they don't work for you on their day jobs......

I've seen an official allow a team to score the winning basket with 6 men on the court and go on to be an alternate at the Final Four.

The Referee Death Penalty must be a regional thing.

Exactly...and guess what, they aren't going to start the game without you. Take the dime to discuss it ALL and get it right.

You're kidding yourself if you think that isn't ending their careers. But, if you can find the referee who has never made a rules mistake, he can be the one to fire them. Go ahead; I'll wait.

Amen. I was telling a buddy of mine the other day that was ALL over a ref from his kid's game. I said look man, please remember that that dude probably worked a 10 hour day today, reorganized his schedule to leave early from work, drove who knows how far one way and spent time away from his family for what reason? So that your kid can chase his dream of playing basketball in highschool. Lay off him and remember that if he decided he has heard enough from parents like you yoru kids dreams will go out the same door the offical quits through.

Yep.

Sort of like having a "do over" in an NCAA men's game a few seasons back.

Oh wait...those guys are all 3 still working. One has worked the NCAA tournament the last two seasons after making that screw-up.

Anyone who would say that officials should be fired for making a mistake is either incredibly arrogant or incredibly dumb. Or maybe both?

Why isn't a 3 possible? You don't have to catch and shoot to get a 3....it could be tapped from there too making all of his points possible. It is unlikely to go in on such a tap, but it could. In reality, all of those things should be covered, most of all, the 0.3 situation.

Yep. Used as a teaching moment for the entire association. Lots of things before and immediately after that could have been done. Unfortunately, the crew had left the visual confines when they realized the mistake and it was too late.

Can't tell you how many times I've had games where no matter how many times we discuss last second shot and coverage, the wrong official is scoring, waving off, blowing the whistle while sometimes (either the correct official is either asleep at the wheel or about to do his duty).

Heck, I've had a 3 man game where with less than 3 seconds to go in a full court situation, and Im the trail (on the other side of the court) administering an in-bounds and somehow the team is able to get off a layup (albeit right after the buzzer) when they were down by 2 and I have to come in and wave the shot off, because both my partners were just standing there after the horn sounded. So yes, I've had the privileged, of being in way to many situations where this needs to be covered.

When the person making your hamburger at McDonalds makes a mistake they can be fired easily because there are another 20 million illegal aliens here ready to take his place. When the CEO at McDonalds makes a mistake, he isn't so easily fired because the number of people qualified to do is job is much smaller. You can walk into any number of middle school and rec league gyms to find guys who can officiate and not make the mistake these three guys did.

I believe your estimate of the number of quality officials is somewhat skewed. And if you're saying that anyone who has made a mistake on the court is unfit to work, then what you're looking for are perfect officials - and those are less common than McDonald CEO's ... as in - I don't believe any of us has ever met one.

Lighten up a bit, Francis.

They could be fired from that league or working for that association. Not sure why that is such a shocking thing to suggest. It was a very bad error and why it happen still baffles me. Someone should have saved this crew. Many have been fired for much less for sure.

Peace

I used to run a McDonald's when I was in college. I could teach someone to make a hamburger in a few minutes. It takes years for someone to become a good, varsity-quality official. I have no clue how good these officials are, but someone felt they were capable of working this game.

You're willing to throw away 3 careers built up over years because of a (regrettable) mistake?

I like to think I won't make a monumental gaffe in my game tonight. But I'm human and it could happen. If it does, it means I should throw away 27 years of work and find something else to do?

There's an old phrase..."There but for the grace of God go I..."

It's not shocking. I've been fired from a HS league for properly penalizing unsportsmanlike conduct -- I didn't even make a mistake and I got fired. Our hiring is a bit different (you and I have similar situations, I think). I lose a league, I find another one to work. Others have associations that do all the assigning -- if they lose that avenue to get games, their careers come to a halt. Or they move.

I did not advocate that take place. Just stating that is not far-fetched. And even being suspended would not be out of the question.

I have also been fired for much less than this and I would not be surprised if that happened again in my career. And just like you, I did nothing wrong either as it pertains to a rule or mechanic or even judgment.

Peace

I am not looking for the perfect official at all. Mistakes happen. This mistake is an egregious mistake and the consequences for those officials should be more severe than normal, up to and including being removed from the staff.

Is there a chance you would be fired if you made a monumental gaffe at your regular job? I would imagine so. I understand the outcome of a HS basketball game is probably insignificant when compared to what would happen if many of us made a huge mistake at our regular job, but there still needs to be an expectation that things are going to be handled correctly. This was a big mistake made by 3 officials on a very simple rule and play. The loss of a game or two and having a discussion with the members of an association is not a severe enough punishment for what happened.

Why not?

Because the level of incompetence, lack of rules knowledge, and unpreparedness demonstrated by those 3 officials in that situation is above and beyond simply kicking a rule and therefore, the consequences of their failure should be much more severe than the standard punishment.

You know, I know, and everyone knows that they F-ed up. I guess I have a really hard time kicking high school basketball officials when they're down.

Just curious. If this mistake had been made at the end of the 1st quarter, would it still be egregious?

Would you say the same thing if this same scenario happened at the end of the first, second, or third quarter? If not, why not?

I think this is just way overboard. It was a bad miss, especially since they had just discussed it with the coaches. I still think it's even money that it wasn't the worse mistake made on the court that night. That honor probably goes to one of the players like it usually does.

I just hope you don't have to live up to this standard when you have the misfortune to make a mistake.

I have made mistakes in officiating and at my regular job, and I have been penalized accordingly. If I was foolish enough to make this particular mistake, I would expect to be fired from that league/staff. Would that be the end of my career, probably not since we have multiple leagues to work in here. It would however impact the amount and level of games I might get in those other leagues as well.

If only this type of mentality is taken when financial institutions bring a country (and world) to a depression :rolleyes:.

Yes, their screw up was major. But to get fired, I don't think so. Maybe X game suspension, plus being downgraded for a year or so. Comparing sports officials and hamburger flippers is apples to oranges.

If this was a college game at the D1 level, the official would probably be fired from that league. It is not out of the total possibility that could or has happened in the past. Certainly they would have been suspended and in some cases for the rest of the year. Of course like anything in life, it would be based on who the individuals were and their officiating accomplishments. So a State Final guy might get a different penalty than a guy that is working is first year as a varsity official.

Let us not act like this has never happen for things like this in any other situation. And I am not suggesting that all officials should be fired. But something done would not surprise me or be a tragedy either. This is about as bad a mistake you can make and a team lost as a result. I read all the time about how officials are not held accountable by observers that are not officials. Well that is not entirely true, but this would not shock me if there was an example made out of these guys on some level. But to act shocked that is suggested is silly to me on many levels.

Peace

You are correct. I do think ANYTHING can happen to them and I wont be surprised. What I meant to say was that firing is overkill. If they were not ready for this type of game then shouldn't the penalty be shared with the person/people that put them there? I've seen people get fired for nothing, and others who should have been fired get a slap on the wrist. So I can tell you nothing surprises me. It hasn't for a long time.

I could write a friggin' book on things that fit this. And it'd be thick.

Over the last few years there have been a number of mistakes made in D-1 games which we have discussed on this forum. Most of them were every bit as "egregious" as this mistake...having a hard time thinking of any of those officials who were dropped (fired) by the conference. Most were suspended and saw their schedules cut the following season...but fired?

You would have to be more specific about mistakes that were just as egregious. I cannot remember any quite on this level. But that being said I know of officials that were let go or not rehired from conferences for not so public reasons.

Peace

Most, if not all, of the D1 mistakes we have discussed on this forum were committed by individuals or crews made up of highly rated/high seniority guys. Perhaps their punishment, or lack thereof, was disappointing in its severity. Unfortunately the reality of any situation is that some people are more valuable to organizations than others and will not be treated/punished in the same manner as some other people would for the same activity. Those same mistakes, if made by new D1 hires or people on the bottom tier of the conference staff, would have resulted in a much different penalty.

+1, and there is nothing wrong with that. I don't think we all need to be treated equally in all things. Life is pretty much 100% grey.

How do you know if those officials on that game weren't higher tier varsity guys in that area? Could be the same situation...

Perhaps, but highly unlikely. I doubt 3 experienced, high tier, officials would make the mistake these guys made. The situation, what they needed to be thinking about, and the rule involved are way to simple for 3 guys of the caliber we are talking about to make this particular mistake. Especially if they were asked about it by one of the coaches literally seconds before the play occurred.

A number of people have pointed out D1 officials – some of them very experienced – make mistakes, too. It happens.

I agree with Jeff’s comment regarding these officials being fired if this was a D1 game. The NCAA assignors I’ve had all have said the same thing: Everybody kicks calls. They won’t tolerate it if we kick a rule. This play involved kicking a rule.

For those who have asked whether this would’ve been just as egregious if the play was at the end of any of the other three quarters: yes it would because it involved kicking a rule. The only difference is they might have been able to get themselves out of it, especially if it happened at the end of the 2nd quarter since they would’ve had a ten-minute intermission to figure things out.

If you're talking about them taking the point off the board when they come back, they (for whatever reason according to NFHS) wouldn't be able to correct the mistake. Now whether they would follow this interpretation or "do the right thing" is a different matter...

NFHS 2010-2011 Interpretations

SITUATION 1: Three-tenths of a second remain on the clock in the second quarter. A1’s throw-in is “caught” by A2, released on a try, and the officials count the basket. The coaches do not protest, the officials do not confer and all participants head to their respective locker rooms. Upon returning to the court with three minutes remaining in the intermission, the opposing coach asks the officials if the basket should have counted since the ball was clearly caught and released with three-tenths of a second on the clock. The officials realize their error at this point. RULING: The goal counts; this is not a correctable-error situation as described in Rule 2-10. (2-10; 5-2-5)

And there it is...I do not know if the Coach protested or not in this OP...

but, again, if there is a proper protest...our State Powers will look at it and determine what should be done. (if anything)

(regardless if johnny d thinks it is silly or not)

I can't believe that was ever an interpretation. That is absolutely a CE and well within the window.

I know (hope) everyone here would "do the right thing."

Does this interp tell us that "control" is a judgement call?

...Not a "rule" being inadvertently set aside?

It is the only thing I can come up with as to why it is not a CE...or why the powers that be in Virginia would/could not hear a protest concerning the OP.

Something to think about.

That is the only way I can reconcile this case play.

Care to expand on the discussion that took place at the meeting, what happened with the officials who kicked it, etc

We reviewed the play and discussed the issue at hand and used it as a teaching moment. No discussion or explanation was had about any ramifications for the officials who refereed the game.

Did the officials give a reason for their actions? In the video one official raises his right arm to signal it would be a 3 pointer if good, but it looks like he puts the arm down, rather than raising his left arm. In other words, he seems to have caught his mistake and knew the basket shouldn't have counted. It looks like the fans, of course, don't know the rule and rush the court. The officials hustle off the court to avoid the melee.

The only explanation I see is they probably all get in the dressing room and say to each other, "you waved that off, right?". "I thought you did." "Huh?" "I think we just f'ed up."

The officials names were never given nor was the video shown. We discussed the play as it was officially reported and what should have been done.

Late to the party but I haven't had time to be on here recently and I happen to have a game tonight at the school where this occurred.

Obviously, I am in the same association as Grunewar and also attended our meeting the other week where we discussed this.

The main takeaway was that crew missed several opportunities to get together and get this right. We all have brain farts and can kick a rule but there was an evident lack of communication and coming together that could have saved the crew from this unfortunate incident.

Names were not mentioned and as expected nothing was discussed about any possible repercussions. I will say that I have since found out who all 3 officials were. I've worked with each of them and 2 of the 3 are state level HS officials. One has worked some D1 men's and another who has worked some level of NCAAW.

It will be very interesting to see how this plays out in terms of post-season assignments from our association.

So if they had called a technical foul and resumed the game at POI, would you think they should be fired?

A technical foul for...?

It's a hypothetical T to ask about how upset he gets about other rule issues that are actually quite common.

I had a boys game last week where we had two quarters where we were going to resume play with .9 second on the clock. One was the 4th quarter, with three free throws for the visiting team trailing by 3.

We gathered to clarify, just to be sure, that the ball could be caught and shot. The coach also asked, just to make sure.

The defense got the rebound anyway, so it didn't matter.

I had one with .3 remaining and the offense ran the perfect play with the lob. The offense about 3 feet away caught and shot. I had the whistle before the ball got to the rim. If these guys deserved to be fired do I deserve a raise? Maybe not because I thought of this thread before the play began. You guys might have saved me from getting fired.

The clock operator is also an official, and is the alternate should one of the 3 floor officials be unable to continue. Therefore, the clock operator also wears a uniform, including the striped shirt. That is why the article author noted that there were 4 men in stripes.

Can't imagine why you felt the need to revisit this zombie post to add your inimitably enlightened perspective.

Don't you have more important things to do like parsing the rules for Filipino Basketball Association 3 on 3 midget contests?

I know Cecil gives gives priority in varsity assignments for being able to recite such nuggets of wisdom.

The Talking Dead ...
 

I was wrong, in spades.

Agree. If you're a high school official right now, especially with less than five years of varsity experience, stick to high school rules and mechanics. Become a high school expert.

When you become a college official, only then concentrate on college rules and mechanics. Same advice for FIBA, the NBA, WNBA, etc.

It's way to early to think about situations you will be facing working an NCAA Final Four game, an Olympic final, or an NBA final.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with having goals, but take it one step at a time, don't jump the gun, pick your favorite expression.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.X...=0&w=262&h=178

reference, please.

Please don't feed him...

Why did I know who revisited this thread four years later before even opening it up...

Let me guess, it the referee who wants to work for Cardinal, Board 12, Que'z and MBOA....you do realize by working for every group in and around the district that all of your assigners will view you as a "secondary" official. You live in the county with best hs league in the country ( WCAC ). 10 years from now when you can't sniff the DeMatha / Gonzaga game because your assigner doesn't consider you loyal to Brd. 12 don't say we didn't tell you so.....

Back in the day, I got nothing from Board 12. I don't know how things will change now with new leadership there, but loyalty only goes so far. I can't be loyal to an organization that has done next to nothing for me.

Raymond works for multiple high school and college assigners, so why are you saying that I am wrong to do the same, if only at just the high school level? If I find one board that I can shine for and that treats me well, maybe I'll limit myself to that board, and another to have games from on off days, but until then, I need to check out my options. That is what being an independent contractor is about. I am not an employee of Board 12, and am thus not beholden to any non-compete clauses, implicit or explicit.

I know another guy who works in multiple IAABO boards in the State of MD, yet he receives varsity (including WCAC) assignments in both, and other MD/DC/VA dual board members. Dual/multiple board member does not mean disloyal to a specific board. If I get DeMatha-Gonzaga, fine. If not, that's OK too. Maybe I might get a DCSAA championship game, a VHSL state championship game, or an MPSAA championship game at Towson or College Park instead. Heck, I might be working on TV within the next 15 years.

Back to the original topic, I think that the officials should get together after the last second shot went in. If I was U2 on that crew, I would have told the OTO that 0.4 or more is required for catch and shoot, but the shot could not count because we only had 0.2 remaining. Perhaps this situation is why Scott Bach-Hansen put in the training video on last-second shots that the crew MUST get together after last-second shots to get the play right. If you are a Cardinal member also, you might know the video that I am talking about. If not, find Scott Bach-Hansen on YouTube. One of his videos discusses last-second shots, among other topics.

The next time a thread > 90 days dormant is bumped up by you, I'm going to suspend you from the group. Stop it, already.