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stripes Mon Jan 13, 2014 06:13pm

Lack of effort
 
I received the following email from a friend (who was a good referee until his continued knee problems forced him to retire). He is the coach of a youth (13 yo) team in Las Vegas.

1. We win the tip, our very fast, 6 foot 13 year old sprints to the post. I am telling PG which play to run when before our guy walks the ball past halfcourt we get a 3 in the key call. I was perplexed but told my guy to stay out of the key.

2. We are moving the ball around when my wing guy runs in the key to cut through lane and see’s a shot go up. (I just happened to be watching him cut) when the ball bounces off the rim and my guy gets called for 3 in the key. Ref comes down I ask doesn’t the shot mean 3 in the key is no longer valid? He didn’t even look at me. I moved on.

3. Player misses a shot, our 6 footer jumps straight up, arms straight above his head and was actually jumped backwards a slight bit and pulls down board. Foul, over the back. My guy was confused, I told him to keep playing hard. I ask ref if he pushed off or something and player wants to know what he did, he said “You saw it, don’t act like it wasn’t a foul” I said, “I am not acting, it wasn’t a foul, kid was straight up and down from where the guy boxed him out to.” I caught that he didn’t really want to be there so I just moved on.

4. 6 Footer kid on my team gets ball in the post, nice move to the hoop, literally gets hit in the head so hard his glasses flew off and he had a cut on the side of his eye. Misses the shot and had an injury time out. I thought the kids dad was going to kill someone but I calmed him down and we moved on.

5. Little Billy on my team drives to the hoop, misses the shot, my big man, same guy from last play takes it up and they are hanging all over him. No call. The ref comes down, I ask them to please watch the contact on the play and he responds, “Coach, that kid should be good enough to play through contact because he is taller than the other kids” OK, well at least you admit, was my response. So I moved on.



Later in the game, and my frustration was mounting the other team had 2 fast breaks on my end of the court where my guys got a way with murder and the refs were walking up the court like they didn’t care. My blood was boiling because I knew they weren’t going to be there when my guys had a fast break. I finally turned to the guy in charge, who is a longtime high school official down here and is a “crew chief” they call them and just said, “I can deal with missed calls and unnecessary 3 in the key and stuff like that, but I can’t take having officials walking up and down the court” He agreed but ended up leaving or going to the other gym and never said anything to me. Well unknown to them but little Billy’s Dad is a high school varsity coach. Helps out a lot with practices. So my guy comes down the court on a fast break and gets a shove from behind, misses layup and there are the guy that should be lead and getting position walking behind half court calling it out of bounds. I simply said, “did you see the hand in the back and choose not to call it?” He said “there was no contact” I said “There was contact, if you had made any effort whatsoever to get up to where I was standing or in front of the play you would have seen the foul. As it is that kid that hasn’t scored yet this year didn’t get the call” At that point he looked at me a little funny like, you have done this. He then walked past me while the ball was transitioning, not even a slight jog. I then just let him have it telling him to hustle so the other team doesn’t get screwed on a play that he can’t see. Got my T at that point. He came over and said “I know you think you know what you are talking about but I don’t think you do. You need to sit the rest of the game and just remember one thing, these are little kids and it’s not like these games matter” I just looked at him and said, “Dude, I don’t know what level of basketball you have worked, nor do I know your goals or motivation level but you never know who is watching so be careful what you say” Little Billy’s dad was standing right behind me when he said that. Little Billy’s dad went straight to “Crew Chief guy and asked if they were Varsity officials. 1 was and the other, forntunately the one staying out of trouble but not exactly hustling himself was first year varsity guy. The coach looked at him and just said, “If you ever show up to one of my games with that guy, I will be thrown out in the first 5 minutes.



After the game, I saw crew chief in the corner of the guy just letting this guy have it. The dude left and crew chief reffed the next game. I don’t think he was planning to work any games either.



I honestly said so few to these guys because I didn’t think they were worth it but man did that dude piss me off on Saturday. My wife kept looking at during the game telling me to calm down, I wasn’t saying anything or being loud, in fact I was telling my assistant to shut up and even telling him on half of his complaints the officials got it right or didn’t need to call something. I think I pissed him off too. It is just frustrating when guys can’t even hustle a little. I don’t expect sprinting speed but act like you care. They get paid $30 bucks a game which isn’t bad either.

BillyMac Mon Jan 13, 2014 06:20pm

Always Listen To bob ...
 
Here on the Forum, we often say, "Don't make three seconds your best call of the night".

I guess that this guy wasn't listening.

JRutledge Mon Jan 13, 2014 06:45pm

It is youth ball, be glad you have anyone. Never would suggest you would get the best or most knowledgable officials around. There is a reason this official is working that game. And that does not mean always that he would not be good enough to work other games or levels, but sometimes this is an indication.

Peace

Rich Mon Jan 13, 2014 06:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 918136)
It is youth ball, be glad you have anyone. Never would suggest you would get the best or most knowledgable officials around. There is a reason this official is working that game. And that does not mean always that he would not be good enough to work other games or levels, but sometimes this is an indication.

Peace

One reason I don't work many of these games. When I work, I work one way. It disgusts me to see officials walking up and down the floor because they don't think the game deserves effort.

I'd just rather avoid that kind of basketball. At this point in my life I don't think it makes me any better of an official.

SNIPERBBB Mon Jan 13, 2014 06:47pm

Dang I would love to have 30 bucks for doing rec games, we get 15 at best here in my county there are a few tournaments I hear that pay better.

Some guys are just there to collect a check, it happens in high school games as well but not quite to that degree. As far as the "these games dont matter", well these games always matter though it might not matter to you. It is also true that games at that level are treated much too seriously than what they ought to be( what I usually attribute to what I call the 18-year get-rich-quick scheme delusion).

Rich Mon Jan 13, 2014 06:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB (Post 918139)
Dang I would love to have 30 bucks for doing rec games, we get 15 at best here in my county there are a few tournaments I hear that pay better.

Some guys are just there to collect a check, it happens in high school games as well but not quite to that degree. As far as the "these games dont matter", well these games always matter though it might not matter to you. It is also true that games at that level are treated much too seriously than what they ought to be( what I usually attribute to what I call the 18-year get-rich-quick scheme delusion).

$15? I couldn't imagine leaving the house for $15 a game. They fill slots paying that little?

JRutledge Mon Jan 13, 2014 06:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 918138)
One reason I don't work many of these games. When I work, I work one way. It disgusts me to see officials walking up and down the floor because they don't think the game deserves effort.

I'd just rather avoid that kind of basketball. At this point in my life I don't think it makes me any better of an official.

Same here. And working too much takes away from what I really need to be on display and work.

And I feel the same about what these games do for me. It mostly frustrates me because I expect a certain level of conduct by the participants and that is unrealistic when no one is held to the same level of conduct that you see at the HS or college levels.

Peace

Raymond Mon Jan 13, 2014 08:46pm

If they are in Las Vegas, and they are Varsity officials, especially a crew chief, then tomegun would know them. But he may not have anything to do with assigning that particular league.

Catch him before Sunday night's NFC conference championship game, b/c he might not be in a good mood after that. :D

Raymond Mon Jan 13, 2014 08:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 918142)
$15? I couldn't imagine leaving the house for $15 a game. They fill slots paying that little?

I'm very particular about the non-scholastic games I will officiate. I know around these parts I have the reputation of a prima donna because of this, but when I do sign up to work, nobody has to worry about any type of mess of any kind happening in my game.

When I choose not work certain tournaments and venues, I let them know it's because I wouldn't be motivated to give my full effort.

HokiePaul Tue Jan 14, 2014 08:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by stripes (Post 918132)
I received the following email from a friend (who was a good referee until his continued knee problems forced him to retire). He is the coach of a youth (13 yo) team in Las Vegas.

1. We win the tip, our very fast, 6 foot 13 year old sprints to the post. I am telling PG which play to run when before our guy walks the ball past halfcourt we get a 3 in the key call. I was perplexed but told my guy to stay out of the key.

2. We are moving the ball around when my wing guy runs in the key to cut through lane and see’s a shot go up. (I just happened to be watching him cut) when the ball bounces off the rim and my guy gets called for 3 in the key. Ref comes down I ask doesn’t the shot mean 3 in the key is no longer valid? He didn’t even look at me. I moved on.

If I'm coaching, rather than arguing the rule as in 1 and 2, I might take a timeout and calmly ask the official to come over for a moment. Clearly the officials do not understand the 3 second rule, so I would (quietly so that no one else could hear) say something like:
"I just want to let you know the 3 second count does not start until the the there is team control in the front court. Also, there can be no three second count during a shot as there is no team control. I just wanted to let you know because I myself am an offical and I know several other officals are here as well watching and they will recognize immediately that you are misinterpreting this rule. That's all, thanks ref."

It might not work, but if the rule application is that bad, I'm getting screwed either way. Any maybe the ref actually does want to learn and didn't realize the three second calls were incorrect by rule.

Nevadaref Tue Jan 14, 2014 09:33am

I wouldn't advise attempting to tell a referee doing an 8th grade game anything about the rules.
I'll have more to post on this whole situation later.

bob jenkins Tue Jan 14, 2014 09:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 918230)
I wouldn't advise attempting to tell a referee doing an 8th grade game anything about the rules.
I'll have more to post on this whole situation later.

I agree. The best you can do is ask a question and *maybe* follow it up with "Can we both look that up later? Because I thought it was the opposite."

Rich Tue Jan 14, 2014 09:59am

I was watching a softball game my 9-year-old daughter was playing last year.

The "umpire" was calling pitches more than a foot off the plate strikes. It was everything I could do not to say something. I went for a walk, instead. I mean, there was no way she could even *REACH* those pitches.

This year, I'm the team's coach. We'll see how this goes.

I get that I'm getting the bottom of the barrel or the newest umpires, BTW. I'm prepared for that.

egj13 Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:00am

In my previous home of record during my first year in that association I showed up to work a MS boys game and there was a game going on before mine. The one official was a young kid that I had worked with already but the other guy I hadn't met. This dude was wearing a long sleeve shirt under his stripes, chomping on gum and holding his whistle in his hand. He would work the endline to the nearest freethrow line and that was it. So the young kid comes over at half time to ask what I thought about how he was doing. I gave him some feedback and said, "but this clown you are working with is a disgrace" He says "oh he is just saving energy because he is working the cross-town boys game tonight" Turns out he was one of the best officials I had seen in person when he was working HS/College ball but he made it clear that he was at MS games for the extra money.

Long story short...if you are a recreation level coach you can expect recreation level officiating. Personally I give my best at every level because they deserve it but many officials don't.

pfan1981 Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by egj13 (Post 918238)
Long story short...if you are a recreation level coach you can expect recreation level officiating. Personally I give my best at every level because they deserve it but many officials don't.

These are the games that can get out of control. Lack of game management, lack of fans knowing the rules, not calling everything (otherwise you would be there all night), etc. I think Ed Hightower plans on doing some middle school ball during his retirement......

rockyroad Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 918156)

Catch him before Sunday night's NFC conference championship game, b/c he might not be in a good mood after that. :D

49'ers fan, huh?!!?:D

Camron Rust Tue Jan 14, 2014 01:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 918237)
I was watching a softball game my 9-year-old daughter was playing last year.

The "umpire" was calling pitches more than a foot off the plate strikes. It was everything I could do not to say something. I went for a walk, instead. I mean, there was no way she could even *REACH* those pitches.

This year, I'm the team's coach. We'll see how this goes.

I get that I'm getting the bottom of the barrel or the newest umpires, BTW. I'm prepared for that.

Those were strikes compared to the ones I was seeing when my duaghter played around age 10-12. Consistently, and in more than one game, the umpire was calling strikes on balls that bounced in the dirt before reaching the plate. :eek:

HokiePaul Tue Jan 14, 2014 01:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 918230)
I wouldn't advise attempting to tell a referee doing an 8th grade game anything about the rules.
I'll have more to post on this whole situation later.

I guess I'm biased on my experiences. In my experience, the official described in the post (who doesn't understand the 3 second rule among other things) clearly isn't someone who would be working at the HS level. Many youth leagues hire local kids/teenagers and "train them" as best they can. This is the situation I am envisioning. Many of the officials just flat out don't know the rules at times.

I'd be curious to hear some of the arguements against this approach.

BayStateRef Tue Jan 14, 2014 02:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 918325)
I guess I'm biased on my experiences. In my experience, the official described in the post (who doesn't understand the 3 second rule among other things) clearly isn't someone who would be working at the HS level. Many youth leagues hire local kids/teenagers and "train them" as best they can. This is the situation I am envisioning. Many of the officials just flat out don't know the rules at times.

I'd be curious to hear some of the arguements against this approach.

You are the coach this game, not the assignor or the clinician. If you want to improve the officiating at this level, take over as the assignor or offer to run clinics.

I don't believe that during a game is the time to "teach" officials or explain rules to them. The one time I coached a rec program and saw weak officials, I asked them only to blow the whistle loud and tell the kids what the call was. I accepted all other officiating weaknesses, much as they accepted all my coaching weaknesses.

HokiePaul Tue Jan 14, 2014 02:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef (Post 918334)
You are the coach this game, not the assignor or the clinician. If you want to improve the officiating at this level, take over as the assignor or offer to run clinics.

I don't believe that during a game is the time to "teach" officials or explain rules to them. The one time I coached a rec program and saw weak officials, I asked them only to blow the whistle loud and tell the kids what the call was. I accepted all other officiating weaknesses, much as they accepted all my coaching weaknesses.

I can see that, however, just to be clear, if I'm the coach, I would not be doing this so much to teach, but to help my team. If I thought that my team was being put at a disadvantage because the official was applying the rule incorrectly, I would be looking for a way to help the official understand the rule. I'm of the thinking that in this case, the official is likely a bit unsure of themselves so rather than publically voice my disagreement, I think I'd have better luck discretely discussing during a timeout. Again, I understand how this wouldn't be appropriate in many circumstances

JRutledge Tue Jan 14, 2014 02:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 918344)
I can see that, however, just to be clear, if I'm the coach, I would not be doing this so much to teach, but to help my team. If I thought that my team was being put at a disadvantage because the official was applying the rule incorrectly, I would be looking for a way to help the official understand the rule. I'm of the thinking that in this case, the official is likely a bit unsure of themselves so rather than publically voice my disagreement, I think I'd have better luck discretely discussing during a timeout. Again, I understand how this wouldn't be appropriate in many circumstances

And you really think your comments help? They either know the rule or they don't. What you say is not going to change that fact. I never listen to coaches about anything officiating related and really do not listen when someone tells me they are an official. ;)

Peace

BayStateRef Tue Jan 14, 2014 02:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 918344)
If I thought that my team was being put at a disadvantage because the official was applying the rule incorrectly, I would be looking for a way to help the official understand the rule.

Shame on you (and any other official) for thinking this and double shame on you for putting it in writing.

If I were the official in your game, you would have a very, very short leash. You would get exactly one chance to tell me that (or anything else about the rules or my judgment), because I would then politely and clearly tell you that is the last time you will do that without penalty.

I do not allow rec (and other youth coaches) to offer any "help" in my officiating.

rockyroad Tue Jan 14, 2014 02:50pm

First, let's remember that we are reading only the coach's side of this situation. I would love to hear the officials side. (Not that coaches ever embellish tales of our unprofessionalism :rolleyes:)

Second - a Coach trying to "educate" an official about rules during a game is never going to work. Perfect example from this past Saturday...JC Coach only has 6 players. One fouls out...another player tells Coach "I really need a sub, I need a break." Coach wants to put DQ'd player back into game and proceeds to tell me that he can at the cost of a T, and then tells me that I don't know the rules as well as he does when I won't allow him to do that. So do any of us really truly listen to a Coach who tries to tell us what the rules are???

deecee Tue Jan 14, 2014 03:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 918351)
First, let's remember that we are reading only the coach's side of this situation. I would love to hear the officials side. (Not that coaches ever embellish tales of our unprofessionalism :rolleyes:)

Second - a Coach trying to "educate" an official about rules during a game is never going to work. Perfect example from this past Saturday...JC Coach only has 6 players. One fouls out...another player tells Coach "I really need a sub, I need a break." Coach wants to put DQ'd player back into game and proceeds to tell me that he can at the cost of a T, and then tells me that I don't know the rules as well as he does when I won't allow him to do that. So do any of us really truly listen to a Coach who tries to tell us what the rules are???

With coaches the rules always seem to bend in their favor for whatever action they may want at any specified time.

bob jenkins Tue Jan 14, 2014 04:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 918344)
I can see that, however, just to be clear, if I'm the coach, I would not be doing this so much to teach, but to help my team. If I thought that my team was being put at a disadvantage because the official was applying the rule incorrectly, I would be looking for a way to help the official understand the rule. I'm of the thinking that in this case, the official is likely a bit unsure of themselves so rather than publically voice my disagreement, I think I'd have better luck discretely discussing during a timeout. Again, I understand how this wouldn't be appropriate in many circumstances

99.9% of the time when a coach tries to explain the rule, the coach is wrong. In the .1%, the official will still think you are wrong, and will think you are an @$$ for even trying to bring it up.

stick Tue Jan 14, 2014 04:59pm

I got my start doing varsity hs basketball from working a middle school game. Apparently the main assigner was in attendance watching his son play at a middle school game I was working. He got my number and called me up the next day and wanted to know if I would work with him in a varsity game the next night. Why he picked me is still a mystery to this day. Back then varsity was two man but the lesson is you never know who might be watching you officiate.

Rich Tue Jan 14, 2014 05:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by stick (Post 918374)
I got my start doing varsity hs basketball from working a middle school game. Apparently the main assigner was in attendance watching his son play at a middle school game I was working. He got my number and called me up the next day and wanted to know if I would work with him in a varsity game the next night. Back then varsity was two man but the lesson is you never know who might be watching you officiate.

Jerry Markbreit tells a story about how he worked some nothing football game in the worst weather imaginable -- rain, wind, etc. and treated it like it was the Super Bowl. The right person saw him that day and launched his career that took him to the top of the Big 10 and the NFL.

Adam Tue Jan 14, 2014 06:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 918142)
$15? I couldn't imagine leaving the house for $15 a game. They fill slots paying that little?

They do here, too. Too bad, I wouldn't mind working those games.

Rich Wed Jan 15, 2014 01:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 918383)
They do here, too. Too bad, I wouldn't mind working those games.

My minimum is $25 and I'll do that once or twice a year. And I'll do it if I can have exactly 4 games.

(And yes, if I'm working weekend rec ball, it's *all* about the Benjamin. Or I'm at a camp.)

JetMetFan Wed Jan 15, 2014 06:11am

*In terms of the coach's side of the story being biased: Normally I'm inclined to agree but the fact he's a former official and he said his kids got away with murder on a few calls leads me to believe he's not far from the truth. I base that on the following...

*A partner in one my GV games last week...
- Walked into the gym dressed in his pre-game jacket and game pants. Yes, he was wearing a belt.
- Used his cell phone as we watched pre-game warmups. Twice.
- Used a pink whistle. He said it's a tribute to his mother, which I get, but we have *do* have guidelines.
- Used an unauthorized shirt.
- Ran fewer than ten times during the entire game by my estimate.
- During the last six minutes of the game wouldn't switch. If I was the L and had a foul he just relayed my calls to the table (we use NCAAW mechanics so we don't have a reporting spot). Normally I just force guys to switch but when he started inbounding the ball as I walked towards him I was kind of stuck.
- Many times he either walked - with his back to the play - or backpedaled to the L position in transition.

Are our assignors aware? Yes, but he still gets work. It's the second time he's been my partner this season. He also assigns rec ball. Tons of it.

*Last but not least, you need to come work in the NY/NY Metro area if you want decent pay for rec ball. $40-50 is the going rate. As far as I'm concerned that's still too low.

BillyMac Wed Jan 15, 2014 07:30am

When In Rome, Do What Those In Milan Do ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 918408)
He was wearing a belt.

The horror. And of course, when guys walk into the gym with beltless slacks, they always do an excellent job.

Note: I realize that in many parts of the country, wearing a belt is against the accepted standards of that area. I just can't understand why I can accept that, while others on the Forum can't accept the same premise for standards outside their geographic area.

JetMetFan Wed Jan 15, 2014 07:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 918412)
The horror. And of course, when guys walk into the gym with beltless slacks, they always do an excellent job.

Note: I realize that in many parts of the country, wearing a belt is against the accepted standards of that area. I just can't understand why I can accept that, while others on the Forum can't accept the same premise for standards outside their geographic area.

I figured that would get a rise out of you ;)

Obviously it doesn't affect his ability but it does put him in the "out of uniform" category for NYC...along with the whistle and the uniform shirt. I've worked with the guy twice and he's worn the wrong shirt both times (the first time he forgot his GV shirt and had to wear one with an IAABO patch which, for NYC publics, is reserved for BV games only). It all speaks to attention to details. If I can't trust my partner to handle the easy stuff - like what to wear - I'm going to be concerned about the less-than-easy stuff.

If I was in CT where belts are de rigueur I wouldn't even think about it.

HokiePaul Wed Jan 15, 2014 09:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 918346)
And you really think your comments help? They either know the rule or they don't. What you say is not going to change that fact. I never listen to coaches about anything officiating related and really do not listen when someone tells me they are an official. ;)

Peace

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef (Post 918349)
Shame on you (and any other official) for thinking this and double shame on you for putting it in writing.

If I were the official in your game, you would have a very, very short leash. You would get exactly one chance to tell me that (or anything else about the rules or my judgment), because I would then politely and clearly tell you that is the last time you will do that without penalty.

I do not allow rec (and other youth coaches) to offer any "help" in my officiating.

Clearly the official in the OP is not you. I don't let coaches change my knowledge of the rules ... but I also have been through training and have enough experience where I am confident in my rules knowledge. I made an assumption (perhaps incorrectly based on my own experiences) that the official has never really been trained.

As I mentioned, I see all the time in my area where youth leagues hire local kids and they never get trained. I've seen these officials call "8 seconds", or "advance the ball to half court" after a timout because they watch the NBA. Until someone tells them the correct rule, they will continue to "officiate" that way.

So that is the situation where as a coach I may try to inform the offical of the rule which they are clearly unaware of. I'm not talking about a judgement call ... I'm talking about a basic rule that is not known in a youth/rec league where certified officials are not used. If it is a game that is officiated by IAABO officials, or officials in some other association, I'm just going to go back to the assignor after the game and let them know that the officials don't know basic rules.

stripes Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:18am

The responses have been interesting. A follow up from my friend:

I thought I did a good job at keeping the kids focused. The other coach was going nuts all game so anything I did appeared to be tame in comparison. Our big guy scored 25 in the second half and we won so that helped but it was very frustrating. I remember when I started reffing and was working the AAU circuit. There were some good refs working but at the time XXXX and ZZZZ (my redaction as the names are not pertinent) were big into working those games and I remember XXXX saying once that in those games hustle and being in position made you stand out more than most officials. I always tried. Obviously there are games that are blowouts and a light jog is all you need sometimes I just can’t see walking. In transition there were times when both officials were standing near halfcourt. All well, hope I never did that. I remember an AAU game I worked that had DDDD high and their illustrious coach that YYYY loves vs I think WWWW and BBBB and I worked the game alone because someone didn’t show up. I literally worked the game from about 5 from the baseline to the baseline on each end the entire game. Demanded I get paid double for the game but all things considering had decent position except for the far sideline. DDDD coach was a jackass the entire game, BBBB was understanding and didn’t say much. I don’t expect that from these guys in my game but for heavens sake just make an effort on a fast break.

I believe my friend understands that call will be made and missed and he can live with that. It was the effort part that burned him the most.

I have officiated for 20 seasons and I coach youth football. Lack of effort and making calls out of your area are two things that will definitely get me going. I understand that the games are in a youth league and are not the Super Bowl or even a HSV game, but the kids work very hard in practice and the games are their chance to shine. If you are too big for the game or don't want to put in the effort, don't take the game. (That being said, 95% of the officials I have had for football have been great. Age appropriate and tried hard.)

JRutledge Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 918418)
Clearly the official in the OP is not you. I don't let coaches change my knowledge of the rules ... but I also have been through training and have enough experience where I am confident in my rules knowledge. I made an assumption (perhaps incorrectly based on my own experiences) that the official has never really been trained.

As I mentioned, I see all the time in my area where youth leagues hire local kids and they never get trained. I've seen these officials call "8 seconds", or "advance the ball to half court" after a timout because they watch the NBA. Until someone tells them the correct rule, they will continue to "officiate" that way.

So that is the situation where as a coach I may try to inform the offical of the rule which they are clearly unaware of. I'm not talking about a judgement call ... I'm talking about a basic rule that is not known in a youth/rec league where certified officials are not used. If it is a game that is officiated by IAABO officials, or officials in some other association, I'm just going to go back to the assignor after the game and let them know that the officials don't know basic rules.

But does all that change how the game is called?

So you can inform them all you like does not mean they will listen. And if there are officials calling things that you say they have, the problem is long before they get there and why many of them are working your games in the first place.

Peace

bob jenkins Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 918418)
As I mentioned, I see all the time in my area where youth leagues hire local kids and they never get trained. I've seen these officials call "8 seconds", or "advance the ball to half court" after a timout because they watch the NBA. Until someone tells them the correct rule, they will continue to "officiate" that way.

the way to fix that is some combination of
  • not playing / coaching in those leagues
  • volunteering to train the officials in those leagues
  • contacting the league after the game to indicate the shortfalls

Mentioning it to the officials is not going to work.

BayStateRef Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 918430)
Mentioning it to the officials is not going to work.

A few weeks go I worked a youth league with a first year official, working his first "real" games. I asked if he wanted any pointers...and he said yes. I offered exactly two: correct "box in" position when administering front court throw-ins and blowing the whistle and signalling with a fist or open hand for a foul or violation.

He really tried...but he could not get it right most of the time. He was making calls without blowing the whistle; he was blowing the whistle but not signalling; he had no idea what to do on a throw in other than to give the player the ball.

If the scared rookie, working with a calm, patient veteran is not "getting it" in his first games.....why do you think that your "help" with the rules is going to get a better result? And as soon as you "fix" his NBA rules, you will start on something else.

I do get your intentions are good. But they are misplaced. Bob has repeated my advice: either become the assignor (so you can hire qualified officials) or become the clinician so you can train them properly. I have done both for a rec league. And if I was observing and saw a coach talk to my inexperienced high school officials about a rule or judgment, I would step in and tell them to knock it off. Our program would not tolerate it any other way. That was my job, which I did after the games.

BillyMac Wed Jan 15, 2014 08:25pm

When In The City That Never Sleeps ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 918414)
Obviously it doesn't affect his ability but it does put him in the "out of uniform" category for NYC...along with the whistle and the uniform shirt ... It all speaks to attention to details. If I can't trust my partner to handle the easy stuff - like what to wear - I'm going to be concerned about the less-than-easy stuff. If I was in CT where belts are de rigueur I wouldn't even think about it.

JetMetFan: Well stated. You get it. Why can't others? From now on, when I watch a high school game in New York City, and an official is wearing a belt, then I know that that that official isn't paying attention to details, and may have a few other faults. On the other hand, in my little corner of Connecticut, when a high school official shows up in uniform, and doesn't shower after a game, but just bolts out the door, that's a good indication that that official isn't doing what he is supposed do, and may be a sign that there may be other faults.

APG Wed Jan 15, 2014 09:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 918534)
JetMetFan: Well stated. You get it. Why can't others? From now on, when I watch a high school game in New York City, and an official is wearing a belt, then I know that that that official isn't paying attention to details, and may have a few other faults. On the other hand, in my little corner of Connecticut, when a high school official shows up in uniform, and doesn't shower after a game, but just bolts out the door, that's a good indication that that official isn't doing what he is supposed do, and may be a sign that there may be other faults.


Why are you surprised when something is acceptable in your area of the country...is frowned upon in most parts of the country at the high school level (at the very least at the varsity level)...hell most of the officiating community?

just another ref Wed Jan 15, 2014 09:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 918534)
On the other hand, in my little corner of Connecticut, when a high school official shows up in uniform, and doesn't shower after a game, but just bolts out the door, that's a good indication that that official isn't doing what he is supposed do, and may be a sign that there may be other faults.


Are you saying that whether to shower or not after a game is a point of discussion in your area?

AremRed Wed Jan 15, 2014 09:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 918534)
JetMetFan: Well stated. You get it. Why can't others?

Quote:

Originally Posted by APG (Post 918542)
Why are you surprised when something is acceptable in your area of the country...is frowned upon in most parts of the country at the high school level (at the very least at the varsity level)...hell most of the officiating community?

Or, instead push everyone to accept you and your belt, why not just accept that in some areas it is looked down upon? You don't live in those areas, why should you care? I've been on this forum a year now and have probably seen 30 posts defending your belt. That's about 29 more than I would want to see.

http://i.imgur.com/IwK5sDa.gif

Raymond Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 918546)
Or, instead push everyone to accept you and your belt, why not just accept that in <s>some</s> most areas it is looked down upon? ...

Slight correction.

Still, though

http://i.imgur.com/IwK5sDa.gif

BillyMac Thu Jan 16, 2014 07:10am

When In Connecticut ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by APG (Post 918542)
Why are you surprised when something is acceptable in your area of the country...is frowned upon in most parts of the country at the high school level.

I'm not. JetMetFan isn't. Most posters on the Forum aren't. I continue to be surprised that a few Forum members can't accept that something that is unacceptable in their part of the country is totally acceptable in my little corner of Connecticut.

BillyMac Thu Jan 16, 2014 07:15am

Get In, Get Out, And Get Paid ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 918545)
Are you saying that whether to shower or not after a game is a point of discussion in your area?

Yes. Our local board, as well as our assignment commissioner, do not want officials to give the appearance that we get in, get out, and get paid (for high school games where there are locker room, and shower facilities, available, which is about ninety-five percent of the seventy high schools that we service).

BillyMac Thu Jan 16, 2014 07:20am

What's Good For The Goose Is Good For The Gander ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 918546)
...push everyone to accept you and your belt, why not just accept that in some areas it is looked down upon?

I have always accepted the "dress code" in other areas. What I can't accept is the refusal of some Forum members to accept the dress code in my little corner of Connecticut. Some members seem to imply that "When in Rome ..." works for everywhere accept my little corner of Connecticut.

Raymond Thu Jan 16, 2014 09:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 918580)
I have always accepted the "dress code" in other areas. What I can't accept is the refusal of some Forum members to accept the dress code in my little corner of Connecticut. Some members seem to imply that "When in Rome ..." works for everywhere accept my little corner of Connecticut.

So younger and newer officials wear belts?

And every time you buy new pants, you order them with belt loops?

Rich Thu Jan 16, 2014 09:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 918605)
So younger and newer officials wear belts?

And every time you buy new pants, you order them with belt loops?

This is the part I don't understand. Do officiating supply stores even SELL belted pants anymore? Or are people just buying slacks from Penneys?

JRutledge Thu Jan 16, 2014 09:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 918545)
Are you saying that whether to shower or not after a game is a point of discussion in your area?

It is certainly a discussion point here. Most officials want the ability to shower after the game. You come from work or you going somewhere immediately after the game, taking a shower is often expected and if it is not available many will be upset. One reason we for the most part do not come dressed to games.

Peace

CountTheBasket Thu Jan 16, 2014 09:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 918605)
So younger and newer officials wear belts?

And every time you buy new pants, you order them with belt loops?

Where I work we're allowed to wear jeans every day if we want, but guess what none of the people in the offices with the big paychecks wear them Monday thru Thursday so neither do I because that's where I want to be. I could say the same about officiating (even though it's not acceptable to wear them here that I know of), but even if it was they don't wear the belts where I want to go. Dress for the job you want, anywhere in life not just officiating.

JRutledge Thu Jan 16, 2014 09:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 918607)
This is the part I don't understand. Do officiating supply stores even SELL belted pants anymore? Or are people just buying slacks from Penneys?

No they do not, at least not as a featured part of their uniform line. If you do find pants with loops, you probably looked hard on their website to find them.

Even back 18 years ago, I had to go to Wal-mart to buy a pair of pants to referee my first few games, not knowing or being familiar with the main officiating supply stores. When I saw everyone was wearing pants without a belt, I jumped on the bandwagon and realized that what you wear is a reflection of your professionalism. I guess some will never understand that point of view.

Peace

BillyMac Thu Jan 16, 2014 05:58pm

Space Cadets ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 918605)
So younger and newer officials wear belts?

They can if they want to, but most young'uns, emulating the college guys, chose to wear beltless slacks. During the floor training of "cadets" that just passed the written test, they are told that they can wear belted, or beltless slacks, as long as the belt is a black belt, just like the IAABO manual states. Most "belted" officials are grizzled veterans, like myself. When IAABO, on some level, international, state, or local, decides that belts are out, then I'll just buy some beltless slacks.

BillyMac Thu Jan 16, 2014 06:02pm

Dress Pants ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 918607)
This is the part I don't understand. Do officiating supply stores even SELL belted pants anymore? Or are people just buying slacks from Penneys?

Haggar.

deecee Thu Jan 16, 2014 06:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 918711)
They can if they want to, but most young'uns chose to wear beltless slacks. During the floor training of "cadets" that just passed the written test, they are told that they can wear belted, or beltless slacks, as long as the belt is a black belt, just like the IAABO manual states. Most "belted" officials are grizzled veterans, like myself. When IAABO, on some level, international, state, or local, decides that belts are out, then I'll just buy some beltless slacks.

I don't get the big deal. It's black pants. If a black belt is worn who cares. The uniform is black pants, black shoes, striped shirt. I'd rather an official be able to officiate.

BillyMac Thu Jan 16, 2014 06:19pm

Dress For Success ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CountTheBasket (Post 918609)
Dress for the job you want, anywhere in life not just officiating.

Belts, or no belts, have absolutely no impact on our peer ratings, or rankings, which impact the number, and level, of games that we are assigned by our assignment commissioner. State tournament assignments are assigned according to coaches voting, and I can assure you, they don't give a damn if an official wears a belt, or not, as long as they do a great job calling the game on the court.

An ill fitting, sloppy, dirty, wrinkled, uniform, or jacket, worn scuffed shoes, or shoes with any white on them, will have negative impact on your peer rating (appearance counts 10%), which, in turn, will negatively impact one's ranking, and the number, and level, of games that one is assigned by our assignment commissioner.

Showing up for a game in uniform, or not showing up wearing business casual, will usually have negative impact on your peer rating, which, in turn, will negatively impact one's ranking, and the number, and level, of games that one is assigned by our assignment commissioner.

Think of belts, or no belts, in my little corner of Connecticut, the same as Smitty lanyards, or noose lanyards, in most other parts of the country.

BillyMac Thu Jan 16, 2014 06:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 918608)
It is certainly a discussion point here.

Showers, no uniforms, business casual street clothes, etc. really didn't become an issue here until we merged with the last non-IAABO board in Connecticut a few years ago. Their "culture" was to show up in uniform, not shower, and high tail it out of the school right after the game, while still in uniform.

That was fine for their old local non-IAABO board (When in Rome ...), but it didn't fly on our local IAABO board. We've always tried to act, and dress, professionally, and to not demonstrate a get in, get out, and get paid attitude. These new guys got a lot of low peer ratings until they eventually figured out the existing (for a long time) culture of our local IAABO board. We told them, they just didn't believe us, i.e. that appearance, on, and off, the court, would impact their assignments.

just another ref Thu Jan 16, 2014 06:32pm

This is the weirdest one yet. Low rating for leaving when the game is over.

jmo

BillyMac Thu Jan 16, 2014 06:34pm

Culture ...
 
From a recent local board newsletter:

When arriving at a game site, people immediately judge you by your appearance. Make a good first impression by coming to game sites dressed professionally in business casual attire. Consider purchasing a sweater, pullover, or vest, with an IAABO logo, or a local board logo. Common sense dictates that some afternoon assignments may require officials to arrive in uniform, or in work clothes. Middle school sites may lack secure dressing areas, and may not have shower facilities available.

For most high school games, where secure dressing areas, and showers, are available, officials should not come dressed in uniform, and should not come dressed in sneakers, work boots, jeans, T-shirts, etc. It looks bad, and reflects poorly on the local board. On court, the official’s uniform should be clean, pants pressed, all black shoes shined, jacket unwrinkled, and the official should be well groomed. Officials should shower after the game and should not leave wearing a uniform. Doing so could give the impression that the official wants to “get in, get out, and get paid”, which is not the impression that local board officials want to present. Officials should leave the game site together. Even in this day in age when everyone has a cell phone, and many have some type of “roadside assistance”, it’s not fun sitting in a cold car, in a lonely parking lot, with a dead battery, or a flat tire, waiting for help to arrive.

BillyMac Thu Jan 16, 2014 06:39pm

Culture ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 918717)
This is the weirdest one yet. Low rating for leaving when the game is over.

It gets worse that that. Junior varsity officials are expected to stay for at least one half of the varsity game. Most, especially if they want to move up quickly stay for entire game. Back in the day, I did.

Again, from a recent local board newsletter:

The four officials at a high school game site should work together as a team. Varsity officials should arrive at the game site no later than the beginning of the second period of the junior varsity game. Junior varsity officials should stay and observe the varsity game until at least halftime of the varsity game in order to learn by watching experienced officials. Many varsity officials try to show up for the beginning of the junior varsity game, and many junior varsity officials will often stay to observe the entire varsity game. The overlap will insure that an official is available if one of the officials at the site becomes ill, or injured. The local board expects veteran officials to observe and offer constructive appraisals, with specific suggestions, to less experienced officials. The local board expects less experienced officials to seek out, and ask for input, from more experienced officials. Partners are expected to offer constructive appraisals to each other. "So? What did you see out there?” is an easy way to start a post-game conversation.

deecee Thu Jan 16, 2014 06:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 918718)
From a recent local board newsletter:

When arriving at a game site, people immediately judge you by your appearance. Make a good first impression by coming to game sites dressed professionally in business casual attire. Consider purchasing a sweater, pullover, or vest, with an IAABO logo, or a local board logo. Common sense dictates that some afternoon assignments may require officials to arrive in uniform, or in work clothes. Middle school sites may lack secure dressing areas, and may not have shower facilities available.

For most high school games, where secure dressing areas, and showers, are available, officials should not come dressed in uniform, and should not come dressed in sneakers, work boots, jeans, T-shirts, etc. It looks bad, and reflects poorly on the local board. On court, the official’s uniform should be clean, pants pressed, all black shoes shined, jacket unwrinkled, and the official should be well groomed. Officials should shower after the game and should not leave wearing a uniform. Doing so could give the impression that the official wants to “get in, get out, and get paid”, which is not the impression that local board officials want to present. Officials should leave the game site together. Even in this day in age when everyone has a cell phone, and many have some type of “roadside assistance”, it’s not fun sitting in a cold car, in a lonely parking lot, with a dead battery, or a flat tire, waiting for help to arrive.

It's funny because I have seen many sharply dressed officials who didn't know a whistle from a leaf blower. I hate "perception" but I do like "reality". I agree your game uniform should be nice, and you shouldn't show up looking like a schlep, but I am a proponent for officials being rated and judged based on their ability to officiate.

BillyMac Thu Jan 16, 2014 06:45pm

Hygiene 101 ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 918717)
This is the weirdest one yet. Low rating for leaving when the game is over.

No shower? Please don't sit next to me at the local Outback, Applebee's, TGIF's, Ruby Tuesday's, etc., on a Friday night after the games as we all tell our war stories. Even if I wasn't stopping for an adult beverage after the game, there's no way that I want to sit in sweaty uniform on the long ride home after the game.

BillyMac Thu Jan 16, 2014 06:48pm

Professional ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 918722)
It's funny because I have seen many sharply dressed officials who didn't know a whistle from a leaf blower. I hate "perception" but I do like "reality". I agree your game uniform should be nice, and you shouldn't show up looking like a schlep, but I am a proponent for officials being rated and judged based on their ability to officiate.

Only 10% of the peer ratings is appearance, and a large part of that is being in decent shape. This is what we look for in that 10%:

1) Official is in physical condition and exhibits hustle and energy through the game.
2) Official’s uniform and overall appearance is neat, clean and well kept.

BillyMac Thu Jan 16, 2014 06:51pm

All Politics Is Local ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 918713)
If a black belt is worn who cares.

In my little corner of Connecticut, we would all agree with you. But some obviously do care (just read this, and similar threads). It depends on which Rome you officiate in. We don't care one way, or the other, in my Rome. And in other Romes? They do what they do. Everybody has different standards. Basketball officiating, at least on the high school level, is not under any single universal umbrella.

just another ref Thu Jan 16, 2014 06:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 918720)
It gets worse that that. Junior varsity officials are expected to stay for at least one half of the varsity game. Most, especially if they want to move up quickly stay for entire game. Back in the day, I did.

Again, from a recent local board newsletter:

The four officials at a high school game site should work together as a team. Varsity officials should arrive at the game site no later than the beginning of the second period of the junior varsity game. Junior varsity officials should stay and observe the varsity game until at least halftime of the varsity game in order to learn by watching experienced officials. Many varsity officials try to show up for the beginning of the junior varsity game, and many junior varsity officials will often stay to observe the entire varsity game. The overlap will insure that an official is available if one of the officials at the site becomes ill, or injured. The local board expects veteran officials to observe and offer constructive appraisals, with specific suggestions, to less experienced officials. The local board expects less experienced officials to seek out, and ask for input, from more experienced officials. Partners are expected to offer constructive appraisals to each other. "So? What did you see out there?” is an easy way to start a post-game conversation.

This is not worse. All this makes perfect sense. But if my game is the last game, what more is there for me to do. For the record, there are showers available to us in pretty much 0% of the places we go.

BillyMac Thu Jan 16, 2014 07:22pm

Pete Schweddy's Balls ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 918726)
For the record, there are showers available to us in pretty much 0% of the places we go.

And, also for the record, I would not expect you to take a shower.

Why the geographic difference? We have showers, and secure changing areas, available to us in about 95% of the high schools we service. It's another story for middle school games, were we seldom have a secure changing area, and almost never have an available shower, so we come to the game in uniform, an accepted practice on our local board, as well as in our Catholic middle school games. Last night was the first time in several years that I was not able to shower after a high school game. It was a new "charter" high school, and I was not pleased to ride home in a sweaty uniform.

JRutledge Thu Jan 16, 2014 07:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 918713)
I don't get the big deal. It's black pants. If a black belt is worn who cares. The uniform is black pants, black shoes, striped shirt. I'd rather an official be able to officiate.

You cannot work at most jobs if you are not in what is seen as professional. So yes, how you do your job is actually only part of officiating like it is in other jobs or professions. One of the reasons Rex Ryan who is the DC or the Saints is probably not going to get a HC job in most cities until he cuts his hair.

Peace


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