Knee pads, braces, etc.
 

Has there been a rule change or clarification/interp since last season ('12-'13) regarding knee pads/braces as 3-5-2? Specifically asking of the legality of these sleeve style braces that are approx 18" long, with padding in center covering full knee and compression type material extending each side of the padding. I don't see any reason by rule they would be outlawed, unless it is addressed in '13-'14 rule set. Also, is there a requirement that the pads be uniform in color from player to player as the arm sleeve rule (3-5-3)?

That 18" garment with a knee pad in the middle is a leg sleeve in my book.

Unfortunately, for us, it's not in the rule book as such. I hate those things... or better yet that NFHS has ignored them.

There was a discussion on this just a couple of weeks ago. You need to check with your state. Here, they are sleeves and subject to those rules.

So if they are a leg "sleeve", they would be legal as long as 3-5-3 is met?

OK I pulled that other thread up and checked it out. Sorry, should have looked there first.

A first for me
 

Had a player actually "utilize" their knee pads in my game last night (these were actual knee pads).

Pressure on A1 in the back court and B1 trying to make a steal, A1 quickly does a crossover dribble as B1 was lunging for the ball. B1 lost their balance and went down to their "padded knees" and quickly spun and pivoted up and was back very quickly on D.

Reminded me of my volleyball days when you actually practiced diving to the floor so it became second nature. It seemed to me that A1 was very comfortable utilizing these.....apparently for their intended purpose and NOT just for looks!

Me again
 

So the "sleeve with a pad" or "pad in a sleeve" question is left up to each state for determining legality? Do any of you Virginia guys know if VHSL has prohibited them?

I don't think any place prohibits them.

It's just whether they are knee pads (no restrictions) or leg sleeves (color / match restrictions)

I see them every game. We only make sure all members are wearing the same color.

So as far as you know VHSL has ruled this equipment as a sleeve? I would think no individual officials association within the state could make and enforce a separate interp, would you?

Sleeves are different than pads. That's a fact. Pads can be ANY color.

Sleeves must be the same for every team mate.

If you follow the RULE, you will be correct.

You are correct. The issue is that these are a hybrid/combo sleeve/pad. There is no clear cut NFHS rule that governs these hybrids.

I don't believe there is an issue with pads OR sleeves. I believe the guidance has been pointed out.

As I see it, the issue seems to be differntiating with what appear to be sleeves with the built in knee pads (or knee pads with extended material that goes further up and down the leg) - are they categorized as sleeves (restrictions) OR knee pads (not so much)?

Sounds like there are still different rulings gym to gym. Like someone else said, if NFHS had just categorized these pads/sleeves (since they seem to be all the rage) one way or the other and be done with it, that would make everyone's life a bit easier.

I believe they are sold as sleeves. And they are worn as sleeves most of the time that I have witnessed. It seems like the pad is not for the knee but for the shin if you look how they are worn.

I just feel the NF needed to stay out of this stuff and let kids where what they want on their legs like they do with socks. If a coach has an issue, then so be it, but do not legislate color into this issue.

Peace

Why are you telling me pads can be any color? I never said the couldn't. My respsonse was about sleeves: "That 18" garment with a knee pad in the middle is a leg sleeve in my book."

If it has a PAD, it IS a PAD. Knee or Elbow.

No PAD, it is a SLEEVE.

No question.

Well for me it is a question as we've got some officials allowing them and some not, even though there is nothing in the rules to support prohibition. I like your reasoning: a pad is a pad...no pad it must be just a sleeve, but the only place sleeves are mentioned (3-5-3) refers to ARM sleeves. Knee PADS seem to be addressed as a "brace or guard", so to me it would seem these are legal items, and I would agree a uniform color is certainly appropriate, but apparently not required.

Rule 3-5 ART. 3

Arm and leg compression sleeves shall:

a. Be white, black, beige or a single solid school color.

b. Be the same color for each team member.

c. Meet the logo requirements in 3-6.

d. Be worn for medical reasons.

Again, some state organizations have addressed these items like they do in other situations. So it really does not matter what you or I or anyone else personally thinks. It only matters what the state or organizations think and how they want these things handled. We did not see these things until the last few years ago and really this year. So whatever they are or can be used for is really up to how they are interpreted by people with more power.

Agreed, and this year the knee pads/hybrid sleeve devices are way up in my area.

That's your interpretation. It has zero basis in the rule book. Knee and elbow pads aren't even mentioned in the rule book or case book.

Sleeves don't contain pads. If it has a pad, it's a pad.

Who says? Not my state, and not the rule book.

I'm just being argumentative here, b/c I haven't cared personally myself.

I agree it has no basis in the rulebook, and I don't see any mention of pads in the book either.

Given no book definition, we're left to using external definitions -in this case the only external definition of any use to us is the one used by the manufacturers of these.

Sleeves (any brand, I just looked at several on line) don't have pads; and those apparently hybridized things that have pads in them, on line, are labelled and sold as pads.

I am corrected! I was looking at an '11-'12 book in my office...one reason I hadda ask this question in the first place:(

I'll diagree with this. For several yrs now players have increasingly been wearing "arm sleeves" with a "minor cushion/pad" on their elbows due to alleged injuries, and it was never considered "a pad". It was a sleeve. Now, that it goes on the leg, we're considering it a pad?

As BNR said, not in my state. Hey, we're in the same state. Cool! :cool:

Could be. I personally haven't made anybody take off or change that equipment. However, around these parts, at the college and high school levels, they are being interpreted as sleeves.

I should check to see what my state website says, if anything.

Pads are just pads, with only enough material to hold the pad / wrap around the knee.

Any additional material makes it a sleeve.

(Both are equally correct -- these are not "just" pads and not "just" sleeves -- they are sleeves with pads. And that's why your state needs to decide. Ours has decided on the second interp)

Fair enough. I suspect the mileage on this topic varies greatly by geography.

In fact, we have an association meeting Sunday. I'm shooting an email to the interpreter so maybe he can answer it front of everybody, and at least we'll all be on the same page.

Good call. We have a meeting on Wed, and I'll do the same.

Same state
 

I look forward to hearing back from you VA guys as it's pertinent.

Online Shopping ...
 

Here's what one variety is called on Amazon: Mcdavid Extended Compression Leg Sleeve with Hexpad Protective Pad.

Amazon.com: Mcdavid Extended Compression Leg Sleeve with Hexpad Protective Pad: Sports & Outdoors

So, at least in this specific case, absolutely nobody can call this anything but a sleeve. It's right there in black and white, and who knows better what to call it more than the manufacturer. They certainly know more than a bunch of basketball officials, drinking beer, sitting in front of their computer monitors. Wait? I'm being told ... Not everyone? Who are you calling an alcoholic? Never mind about the beer part.

Our interpreter said, "the long leg sleeves with kneepads are leg compression sleeves."

Here in Maryland, I spoke to our state interpreter, I sent him pictures. He said, what I said. If it has a pad, it can be any color. no matter how long the sleeve is so long as it is not attached to the compression pants.

There are no guide lines on knee pads, elbow pads or socks.

Sleeves, without pads, there are now guidelines.

If you tell a kid to take off the knee pads and he gets injured, I'd rather NOT be you.

Ditto for my board.

Language ???
 

But, in Maryland, it's not a sleeve? Even if the interpreter called it a sleeve (see red above)? Silly "Fashion Police" rules.

Note: According to the "When in Rome ..." clause, I don't have a problem with the Maryland interpretation, but I still think that it's funny.

Nit Picking ...
 

Officials never tell players that they have to remove something (uniform, equipment, jewelry, etc.) We tell them that they can't play while wearing the item in question.

It's like you guys would never tell me that I have to remove my black belt. You would just tell me that I can't officiate while wearing a black belt, and leave the rest up to me.

This is from an email sent to our area officials, by the Assignor/Interpreter:

TO: Basketball Officials,

"We are entering into the region play for our schools and I want to review a few items of importance as you continue to officiate your games.

1.Players are not to wear the one piece, long tights under their uniform.

If you suspect they are being worn by a player, ask them to verify that the compression shorts stop at the knee.

Some knee pads actually have the appearance of a long tight with the pad at the knee, but these are legal."

Unfortunately, the wording leads one to believe that if what appears to be a leg sleeve has a pad, there would be no color restrictions, because he considers it to be a "pad"; but if it has no pad, it would come under the color requirements of a "sleeve".

Non-clarification at its finest . . .

I tell them they have to remove it if they want to play. To me that is semantics. They know we are not giving them an option about playing.

Peace

With Apologies To Gold Hat ......
 

Agree 100%. It is. Do you have a problem with semantics? Semantics is the study of the meaning of words. We have an entire rule on the meaning of words. Maybe we should get rid of Rule 4, because it's semantics.

Semantics? We ain’t got no semantics! We don’t need no semantics! I don’t have to show you any stinking semantics!

The following statement is from our Washington Officials Association. (WOA)

"Sleeves,
Headbands,
Wristbands
–
This
year,
the
requirements
have
been
simplified
concerning
color.
This
should
be
strictly
enforced.
By
not
enforcing
the
requirements
concerning
sleeves/headbands/wristbands,
you
are
setting
up
a
negative
situation
for
future
crews.
Wristbands
and
headbands
must
be
the
same
color
for
all
team
members.
If
players
are
wearing
leg
and
arm
sleeves,
all
team
members
must
have
the
same
color.
There
is
no
requirement
that
the
headband
and
sleeves
are
of
the
same
color."

No mention of "kneepads"...

rockyroad? How are you guys handling it?

Interesting way to format an announcement. I guess they are only talking about leg sleeves with this since arms sleeves are more horizontal. :eek::D

Or maybe it was a way to emphasize verticality in an indirect way.

The Texas Way
 

I just heard from my interpreter and we are not allowing the sleeves, with or without padding, unless medically necessary. We are "encouraged" to phrase the medically necessary question in the affirmative during pre-game but if the coach says NO then they take them off.

Oh yes we don't, but high socks are ok (in some cases they look the same). Why do they care what side of the body these things start at?

What you tell them in this case is irrelevant. What you do is more important.

Who cares if you tell them what they cannot wear. The still have a choice and they know that.

Peace

Diamonds Are A Girls Best Friend ...
 

This ...

... is a lot better than just telling them that they have to take out the earrings, as some officials, not necessarily JRutledge, will oft do. The second half of JRutledge's statement gives the player a choice that other statements that I have heard, from other officials, i.e., "Take out the earrings", do not.

If a player wants top sit on the bench, dressed in uniform, with earrings, because he knows that he won't play, as the coach's punishment because he failed an algebra test, then he has the right to do that, and I don't believe that we can do anything, by rule, about it.

Nit picking note: According to a long lost (unless Nevadaref can help us out) interpretation, I don't believe that he can warm up, with the earrings in, before the game.

With A Little Help From My Friends (The Beatles, 1967) ...
 

Seriously guys, I can't find this. A little help, please.

We have been instructed by our state that the long leg sleeve with a pad in it, is a compression sleeve and must meet the sleeve criteria.

3-5-1 "The referee shall not allow any team member (italics added) to wear equipment or apparel which, in his/her judgement, is dangerous . . .

And Case Book 3.5 B tells us that during warm-ups, the prohibition is in force, regarding jewelry.

Pick A Prize From The Top Shelf ...
 

Thanks Rob1968.

3.5 SITUATION B: The officials are on the court prior to the game observing the
team warm-ups. One official notices that a member of Team A is wearing a decorative
necklace. RULING: The official should inform the team member to remove
the jewelry immediately. Upon compliance, the team member may continue to
warm up with his or her teammates and may start the game without penalty.

So maybe, this (below) isn't true, and, maybe, whomever posted it, is an idiot?

Comments (about the situation, not about the idiot part)?

The jewelry rule applies to team members. If he is not eligible to become a player, even though in uniform, he is not a team member. I don't determine player eligibility -- the coach does.

Thanks For The Reply And Clarification ...
 

What if his name is in the book but the coach insists that he won't play that night? Earrings in, or earrings out, while on the bench, in uniform? (Assume that the player in question never warmed up with the team, but you spot him on the bench.)

This sounds like an academic exercise, more than a practical one. I have asked players warming up to remove jewelry and been told they are injured and not playing. I don't challenge that.

I would leave it alone.

3.5 SITUATION B:

The officials are on the court prior to the game observing the team warm-ups. One official notices that a member of Team A is wearing a decorative necklace.

RULING: The official should inform the team member to remove the jewelry immediately. Upon compliance, the team member may continue to warm up with his or her teammates and may start the game without penalty.


2.4.5 SITUATION A:

Before the contest both coaches verify that their teams are legally equipped. In the third quarter A1 is discovered wearing a ring.

RULING: A1 must leave the game and remove the jewelry and may re-enter the game at the next substitution opportunity, but no penalty is assessed against A1 or the coach.



It's nothing for having jewelry on, just get them out of the game and make them take it off before re-entering.

Interesting, Very Interesting ...
 

So, he actually doesn't have to take it off? He just can't play in the game, or warmup, with it on? Interesting? So if an official tells a kid wearing a uniform, whose name may, or may not, be in the book, to take off the earring, as I've heard a few officials state, then, by rule, the kid doesn't have to comply? He can legally sit on the bench, in uniform, in the book, or not in the book, wearing two carat diamond stud earrings? Interesting?

Practically speaking, I just tell kids that they can't play, or warmup, with jewelry. After that, they decide what to do, and in a very few cases they've decided not to remove earrings. Anything else is just an academic exercise for testing purposes, but don't get me wrong, as I do believe that such academic exercises carry some value.

That's how I read it. Just don't let them enter with it on.

We just got word from HS activities association in Kansas that the compression sleeves with padding covering the knee are knee pads and aren't subject to the rule. :confused::eek:

I promised to bring this up... so I did. Pads vs Sleeves vs in between.

Got the 2 clinicians into an argument and never got an answer. Oh well.

Just got the word...(Wa. State)

Treat the sewn in pads as sleeves.

I like it.

Until I get an official ruling from our state, I'm staying out of this one...if it's got a pad, then it's a pad.

By making that (or the opposite) ruling, you are not "staying out of it." ;)

OHSAA interpretation
 

Then you need to go to ohsaabasketball.com and read what our Director of Officiating has to say about it.

Ruling from Interp
 

At our association meeting last night our rules interpreter actually stated the exact opposite. He said that if it's the old school pad on front, with a nylon/elastic/whatever that material is that wraps around the back of the knee, it's a pad. Anything else is a sleeve, regardless of whether or not it contains a pad. I'm also aware that at this point I think that is solely his interpretation as he didn't mention that ruling coming from the state, or NF.

I see your kneepad and raise you headphones and mp3 players worn by players during warmups. League office in VA (VHSL) says they aren't allowed....

If there is any doubt on the issue on these hybrid sleeves, we are trying to err on the side of safety for the kid. Granted, it's not a critical safety measure, but I'm sure you've all seen the scrappy kid who actually is on the floor quite a bit. If its neoprene matererial or something similar that has a padded knee, we're ok with that here, with the reasoning being (that we've been told anyways) that the intent is protection not looks. Obviously with the shooter sleeve or the calf-only leg sleeve, that is not the case.

Your interpreter is also my intertpreter. I missed the meeting, but he is the person I emailed. So I'll continue to use that interpretation, as I have been all this season.

I just got an email from our state basketball head too. It said that it is a sleeve even if it has a pad over the shin area. If it has a pad over the knee area, then it is a knee pad and does not have a color restriction. I can't say that make a whole lot of sense, but that is how I will be enforcing it.

Well, rats, didn't see the Dec 26 post on them...sleeves they are.

Guess NFHS will have to be more specific in their language next year when they clean this rule up. Seems every time a change is made they have to clean them up because people always find ways to circumvent the rules.

lipstick on a pig, imo...

throwing a slab of pad on a sleeve doesn't change what the rule was intended to target.

Once again they should simplify the uniform rules and what isn't allowed. Make all color restrictions to be matching the dominant color and who cares if the kids want to play in sleeves or not, and what is worn under the shorts or not :eek:.

But stop trying to define everything. They will never get ahead of the curve.

Just received this email from our state association.




NFHS Rule 3-5-3 refers to Leg Compression Sleeves. *Be advised that our interpretation of this rule as it pertains to equipment that is a combination of a knee pad and a leg compression sleeve has changed today after consultation with the NFHS Basketball Rules Interpreter and subsequent NFHS Basketball Rules Committee action in this area.* The OSSAA now will view any combination piece of equipment as a KNEE PAD. *This will exclude this combination device from the requirements of Rule 3-5-3.* If there is any doubt if the device is solely a leg compression sleeve or a combination device, the equipment is a KNEE PAD.