What Would YOU Do...(video)
 

Saw this clip and I wondered if I would make call on this play if I was the T. Thoughts?


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Someone needs to have a whistle here. It's okay for T to grab it.

I agree...there needs to be a whistle. To me, either the T of C should get the call becuase the drive started in the T's area and went into the C's area. Makes you wonder what level of contact is needed for that C to blow her whistle...looks like she had a very clear and unobstructed view of the play.

I have a whistle at just about any position and I have a charge. It is in transition and anyone can and should have a foul in the lane IMO.

Peace

The T would be making an educated guess on this play at best. There is no way the T is watching the secondary defender on this play and he shouldn't be. This is the L or C all the way. There needs to be a whistle on this play, so I wouldn't have a problem with the T cleaning it up late, even though he does not have the best look and probably hasn't seen the whole play.

Beat me to it ... in transition, any of the three could have put a whistle on this. L is the last line of defense here and if the two outer officials don't have it, the L definitely should make the call.

Someone has to have a whistle on this. And I disagree that the T could not see the secondary defender. Actually they could see the play coming as they are on ball much of this play. Not saying they are ideal and that other officials might not have a better look most of the time, but you could read this coming a mile away. The ball handler never acted like they were going to stop and pull up. But the C should have had this all the way too. Not sure what the hell she was watching?

Peace

I've got a whistle and a charge. Learned this one the hard way, years ago, as a newby, in two man. My partner came in hard to close down, took the call and looked at me like,"hey man, you've gotta get that one." Never forgot it.

What secondary defender?

After the dribbler blows past #1 above the top of the key, there's only one person in the path of the dribbler.

The T easily should have been able to jump in after the C didn't blow her whistle. He was in great position after hustling down the floor.

In that spot, we'd give first crack to the L. In the paint, L is king.

Your region may vary.

The person that was trying to take a charge. Right or wrong in many circles this is considered a secondary defender. The dribbler beat two blue players to get to the lane. That is also the definition that is used at higher levels.

Peace

I've been told that everyone in transition is a secondary defender.

Regarding the original question: I don't mind T stepping in here with a late whistle but I'm not going to fault him for not doing so. Looks like defender has and maintains LGP, offensive player went to-and-through, charge.

When clinicians talk about being a strong center, this is a pretty good example -- although it shouldn't take a terribly strong center to get this one.

That's part of the NCAAW definition -- if not the "standard English" definition:

Art. 2. In a fast-break situation, any defensive player(s) initially shall be a
secondary defender.

I agree. This is L/C area for this call. The T is the last option, and IMO the worst. Makes you wonder what the C is watching.

Funny....I was told that by several NCAA-M officials. Is the NCAA men's direction the same?

Close hard and get it a little late if you need to as the T in my opinion if the C&L pass, that is too big of a "crash" to not have a whistle. It should've been called fairly easily but sometimes the brain says foul and forgets to tell the mouth to blow the whistle. I think you're better off responding to why that was blown from that area, than having to respond to why was nothing called on such a big collision.

Might also be part of that rules code. :shrug:

Holy cow. C was obviously asleep at the wheel. Somebody get it, but C has a perfect look, middle of the lane.

yes

Not sure about the same direction. But the "arc" is specifically used to prevent a secondary defender from being under the basket. I have no idea if Women's side has the same rule, but in the men that is the purpose of that arc. And in transition everyone is pretty much seen as a secondary defender.

Peace

To be honest, I don't know what I would do if I were the Trail on that play. I've only come an extremely long distance once to get a crash; that was a 2-man HS BV game and my partner was one of my best friends and a mentor, so I knew right or wrong, our post-game convo on the play would be amicable and a learning experience.

+1

Makes me wonder if this C is new to the level of this game.

Same here.

If I somehow saw the defender clearly in the play and was confident in the amount of contact (and certain that there was no "embellishing" by the defender), I could see myself making a call (player control). The T here does seem to be in a position where he could close down and make the call without it looking like the call came from too far out of the play.

But from the T position, I'm not sure I'd be focusing on the off-the ball defender to the point where I feel 100% certain in the amount of contact. In that case, I'm not going to guess at a block/charge just because I see a defender go to the floor. I'm likely to trust that my partners passed for a reason.

You folks from VA are so polite :)

I was thinking virtually the same as both of you, especially Hokie. It’s obvious it’s a crash and your first instinct is to wait for a whistle. The other two don’t do anything and there’s that little bit of doubt that makes you think, “Well, maybe there’s something I’m not seeing here.” By the time you confidently say to yourself “Nah, B1 got run over,” it may be too late.

Of course, how late IS too late on this one?

As that T from their position, probably nothing. That T had a poor view of the play with many players between them and the point of contact. Once the drive shifted to the other side of the lane, that became the C's drive. Then the defender was a secondary in the L's area.

L's call 1st.
C's call next.
T better have a better position than they had to come in for that one.

If the T was 10-15 feet more in the FC, I could see the T getting it.

Just based on the video as that trail I've got nothing. Assuming all other things are equal and I trust the crew I'm with.

There's no way from that deep with two others in position with eyes. They have both (imo) at that moment passed on something that looks like a crash from where I am.

Next chance we have to talk I might ask them what went on, but I'm not coming in on that from there cause without an angle on the players, arc, etc. I'm assuming there is something I've missed that is the reason they've no called it.

We talk about calls that save the crew in the pregame.

This is a call that saves the crew.

It may be in general, but the trail, from where they were, had about the same chance to get it wrong as get it right. At best, they'd be guessing. If they were in a better position, sure, but not the one in that video.

I agree with Jeff and there’s another factor here: what’s the next competitive matchup for the T once A1 leaves his primary? At the moment of contact all ten players on the floor are at or below the 28-foot hash mark. There’s no competitive matchup in front of the T so his job is to look for another. The next competitive matchup is the (impending) crash site.

I like this approach.

If I'm the L in this game, I've got a PC. If I'm the C, I let the L have a heartbeat or two, and then come up with a PC. If I'm the T, and I need to get this one, then ouch!

Bingo.

I thought a "crew-saving call" is a big missed call at the end of the game. Like the Kansas-Iowa State game last year.

Isn't this more of a "call that the game needs", perhaps in order to prevent future rough play?

Adjust your thinking. A crew-saving call is one where everyone in the gym thinks there should be a whistle and it harms the credibility of the crew to "pass" on it.

The T could easily make this call, if needed. He should have an open look and his eyes should have gone there with the imminent crash with no other competitive matchup. Who knows why the C didn't blow on it, but this isn't a case of trusting that the C/L had a better look -- it was clearly a foul.

He eyes maybe should have gone there, but he would have no way of knowing there was an imminent crash. That secondary defender came from the opposite side of the free throw lane. There was another secondary sliding over that was coming from his side of the court.

That's expecting a lot to say he "SHOULD" have been looking at what would be his terciary area, when the ball-handler left his primary, and a defender was moving towards the play from his secondary. He had 2 partners in perfect position to call this play. For all we know he was caught so off-guard, by the time he thought to put a whistle on it, it was too late. And anything the Trail calls on this play is still a total guess.

I disagree with this sentiment. A crew-saving call occurs when there is a non-basketball play such as an elbow or punch that wasn't seen by the official in whose primary coverage area the incident took place. The play in the OP is simply a missed call. The crew and the game will survive this situation and should be able to finish the game without problem.

I honestly do not think that I would go get this one as T. First, I would be trusting the C and L to handle their business and probably would not get a very good look at it. Second, it does not rise, imo, to the level of "Oh my God! We have to call that" which would make me go that far across the court to grab a call.

This play appears to be just over one minute into the game. Not a great way to start and establish credibility in the crew. If the trail did decide to pass, he might be thinking that he is in for a long night.

OK, I'll buy what others are saying.

But it really makes me wonder about the C/L and their abilities. This is about as easy of a PC foul that you'll ever see.

I'll respectfully disagree with this statement. In the "ant/elephant" analogy brought up a few months ago, I'd put this in the "elephant" category.

If a play like this happened during an officiating camp my guess is an observer would say something to the effect of, “I don’t care if you get the call wrong, someone HAS to put a whistle on this!”

+1. this wasn't incidental, and it pretty much tells the defense that don't waste your time trying we wont notice.

I agree! I've seen such a "no-call" when a crew was made up of partners who hadn't previously worked with each other, and/or the official with PCA felt intimidated to be working with his/her partners.
I observed a 3-person crew, recently, who were so tight during the 1st half of their game, that they looked like 3 totally separate officials, with virtually no interaction. We talked about it at halftime, and they did a much better job in the 2nd half.

"Seniority"
 

I have been a part of way too many crews where your position in the Association has more to do with having a "late" whistle here than what actually happened on the court. :eek:

The person too intimidated to make a call because they are nervous about their partners should not be working the game in the first place. That has to be the lamest excuse I have ever heard for not making a call.

I agree. Such feelings of inadequacy are observed, and rarely discussed. The intimidation is rarely admitted, as in an offered excuse. A good mentor, and more game experience seem to be the best tools to overcome those feelings.
Performing as an official is quite foreign to most other activities. And, it takes some experieice to get used to it.

During my second or third year of officiating I got to work with an old timer who was all about "PRIMARY". I made a travelling call that he didn't see, and was very obvious. He gave me a death stare and at the first time out asked me why I would call something in his primary. I told him that I usually don't unless its pretty blatant. He then told me to not do it again and to stay out of his primary. I told him that I would have no problem with that if he got all the obvious calls right.

Never worked with him again.