Question from my state's fan site...
 

The following question is taken verbatim from my state's fan forum. I'd appreciate some thoughts on these...
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There are 21 seconds on the game clock as the ball is in-bounded. The red team is behind by one point and is on offense. After the red team puts the ball in play they complete 3 passes before the blue team deflects the ball out of bounds by the defense.

The refs make the correct call that it is red ball. However, the coach of the blue team realizes that no time has come off the clock during the previous play. Unable to get the attention of the officials at the far end of the court, and aware that he has no time-outs left, he brings the issue to the person running the clock who acknowledges the error and says he will consult with the refs to fix it. The blue coach turns to go back to his bench only to turn around again and see the ball being handed from the ref to the the red team to inbound the ball.

Fortunately the outcome of the game was not altered from these events, but I would like to know a few things. Not coincidentally, it was the home court of the red team.

1) Is the clock person technically an official that can get the refs attention for such a consultation?
2) Is there a different way the coach of the blue team could have handled this?
3) Please explain all options available.

Here are a couple rules (Art 2 and Art 1) followed by a case play that will help.


ART. 2

The game officials shall be a referee and an umpire or a referee and two umpires who shall be assisted by an official timer and scorer.

ART. 1

The head coach shall remain seated on the team bench, except:

a. By state association adoption, the head coach may stand within the designated coaching box described in 1-13-2. The first technical foul charged directly or indirectly to the head coach results in loss of coaching-box privileges and the head coach must remain seated for the remainder of the game, except as stated below in 10-5-1b, c, d and e.

b. The head coach may stand within the coaching box to request a time-out or signal his/her players to request a time-out.

c. The head coach may stand and/or leave the coaching box to confer with personnel at the scorer's table to request a time-out as in 5-8-4.

d. The head coach may stand within the coaching box to replace or remove a disqualified/injured player or player directed to leave the game.

e. The head coach may stand as in 10-4-4c and 10-4-4d.



5.10.1 SITUATION D:

There are six seconds left on the clock in the fourth quarter and the ball is out of bounds in the possession of Team A. The throw-in by A1 *touches the referee on the court and then goes across the court and out of bounds. The timer permits two seconds to run off the clock. What recourse does the coach of either team have in such situation?

RULING: Either coach may step to the scorer's table and request a 60-second time-out and have the referee come to the table. The coach is permitted to do this under provisions of the coach's rule. The referee shall come to the sideline and confer with one or both coaches and the timer about the matter; and if the referee has definite *knowledge that there were six seconds on the clock when the ball was awarded to Team A for the throw-in, it is the responsibility of the referee to have the two seconds put back on the clock. The timer and scorer and the other official(s) can be used by the *referee to gain definite information. If there is no mistake or if it cannot be *rectified, the requesting team will be charged with a 60-second *time-out. (5-11-4 Exception b; 5-8-4; 10-5-1c)

Coach handled it right. Scorer should have hit the buzzer and gotten the referee's attention to sort it out.

Yep, but the odds of them actually being able to remove some time are about 50/50, I'd say. At least one official would have needed to have a count of some kind; otherwise we'll be starting again with 21 seconds.

I agree completely.

Well said.

Without definite knowledge of how much time should have passed then 21 seconds will remain on the clock. The coach handled it correctly, the score keeper needed to get the referees attention at that point.

The coach could have stayed at the table and /or returned to the table once s/he realized that the timer didn't sound the horn.

Sure, but what happens if the coach stays at the table, they call the officials over for a CE. Then, when we don't fix the CE (because it isn't one), don't have to charge a TO?

Don't have my book at work, so I could be off on this.

I for one wouldn't. This wasn't intended by the rules, nor should we punish the coach for our complete lack of competence. Besides the ball is dead and the coach has a legitimate gripe. WE may not be able to fix it, but we shouldn't compound it either.

Correct. The coach takes the risk of the CE challenge costing him the time-out. Remember the rule states that the coach goes to the table to request a time-out. It simply isn't charged if a CE is corrected or prevented.

Anyone who wouldn't charge the excessive TO and the accompanying team technical foul is just wrong and making up his/her own rulings.

This is not a correctable error, it is a timing issue and in my opinion the TO vs TF doesn't come into play.

There are 5 correctable errors; 4 deal with free throws and the 5th with counting/or not a score.

I agree with Nevada, but I'm also telling the coach his options and the "consequences" before we begin any review.

edit: This isn't a CE in HS. No TO charged.

You may wish to consult the text of the rule. It not only covers CEs, but also timing and AP/scoring errors.

Rule 5, Section 8
ART. 4

Responds to the scorer's signal to grant a coach's request that a correctable error, as in 2-10, or a timing, scoring or alternating-possession mistake be prevented or rectified. The appeal to the official shall be presented at the scorer's table where a coach of each team may be present.

I appreciate the thoughts thus far.

I can't see you can possibly continue the game with 21 seconds. While you don't have definite knowledge of the exact time that elapsed, you do have definite knowledge that SOME time should have gone off the clock, particularly after three passes. It can't be zero seconds.

You can consider any backcourt or closely guarded counts in your estimate, or find other ways to find a good number, but zero can't be it, and if you went with zero, you have to charge the team with a technical foul.

Rule 5-10-1 REQUIRES definite knowledge when you're adjusting the clock. So you can use any counts any official had during the period where the clock should have been running, but if no such count exists, you're sticking with 21 seconds. Yes, it stinks, but that's the rule.

To be clear, one cannot estimate! In this case, you can use ANY count that an official has once the ball gains inbounds status to alter the clock (10-sec or five second or if an official notices the clock isn't running and begins to count) and sum them all, but what you may not do is subtract time from the clock in the absence of any count.
You may not like it, but the game must be timed according to the rules, not according to what makes logical sense.
Officials should not be expected to perform the duties of either the timer or scorer. Mistakes happen and those people screw up from time to time. People need to learn that the officials can only fix so much. The rest they have to accept and move on.
Btw in the case of a team being out of TOs, I would definitely start a count on the inbounds so that a minimum of one second could be corrected and the technical foul avoid BY RULE. What I won't do is fail to adhere to the rules.

You may not need exact knowledge, but you need to have some definite "at least this much" knowledge. Chances are, in this situation, you've at least had 1 second of a 5 second count, but if you haven't, then you can't take any time off by rule. Now, nothing says you have to have a 5 second count to be counting.

Otherwise, if you say "why not just take one second off", others will say "Well, I know it was at least 5 seconds". I'm not much for slippery slope arguments, but it seems the rule is the way it is for a reason.

So what if the in bounds pass goes into the front court and A takes 4 seconds after having the ball in their possession to start running a play, then B decided so closely guard and then You have a count to 4 and then realize the clock hasn't started. Could you just take off the four seconds for the closely guarded but do nothing about the other four seconds as no one was actually counting anything?

Yes, because I have no idea how long B took standing there without playing defense unless I had a count. By rule, you need definite knowledge. In your case, I have definite knowledge 4 seconds should come off.

Oftentimes people forget that those correctable errors refer to errors made by officials. Any error made by scorers/timers can be corrected.

Agreed. "Have" a count of something. Team A won't complain because they know that some time should come off the clock. Team B won't complain because some time did come off the clock.

In your head, keep a count. Even do an arm swing if you wish. ;)

The officials who do this are also the officials who would have noticed the clock not running in the first place, and would correct the error without notification from the coach.

+∞

My point was not that this isn't something that can't be corrected, but rather that this error shouldn't cost a team a time out. As officials we need to know the status of the clock and we need to be in the habit on making sure that the clock runs when it is supposed to and stops when it should.

And you are incorrect about that. In post #13 of this thread I provided the rule for you and it clearly includes a timing mistake.

Thus if a coach wants to contend that a timing error occurred and no correction can be made, then BY RULE it will cost his team a time-out.

I would think that the spirit and intent of that rule would result in no timeout if the crew confirmed a mistake was made but didn't have any sort of definite count to make a correction. In this case, a correction can be made if an official has a count. Whether the team is charged a T or not shouldn't depend on whether an official had a count or not.

I agree, if it is acknowledged that a mistake occurred, but no definite knowledge of how much time should come off, then the team shouldn't be penalized. The coach met his burden of pointing a real timing mistake.

And I do have at least one supervisor who tells us we need to take off at least 0.4 if a player on the court catches ball, based on the rule regarding needing at least 0.4 on the clock to catch and shoot.

+1. My sentiments exactly.

That seems a bit unreasonable since catch and shoot is two actions with the "shoot" part of it probably taking longer than the "catch" part of it. Should something come off, yes, but I'd suggest that the minimum time to catch the ball is less than the minimum time to catch and shoot.

This is how my association interprets this. I was taught that in a situation like this (where it is definately not zero or close to zero), briefly get together with your partner(s) if necessary and start asking yourself ... "Was it definately at least one second (yes); was it definately at least two seconds (yes) ... was it definatly at least five seconds (not sure) -- Subtract four seconds off the clock as you have definite knowledge that at least four seconds have elapsed.

I personally have a problem with that. i interpet definite knowledge as a count. 10 sec backcourt, 5 second closely guarded even a silent 3 sec. count not an agreed upon guess by the crew. Last time the mrs. and i had marital relations, I say it lasted 10 secs, she swears 2, unfortunately the clock never started.:D

If you can agree that at least 2 seconds elapsed, you have definite knowledge.

Definite knowledge doesn't always mean *exact* knowledge.

But either quess, 2 seconds or 10 seconds as illustrated in my very poor joke, are guesses they are in no way definite knowledge.

completely agree. This is a case where some common sense should be used and a solution should be reached. It may very well be that NO time is taken off, but if the ball was inbounded in the backcourt and slowly walked up and then couple passes were made in the front court (and if an official didn't at least have a BC count here thats another issue) common sense says that a number GREATER than 0 should be taken off the clock.

You don't know if 2, 5, or 8 seconds came off the clock. Or 6.4. But you know that at least 2 came off.

That's definite knowledge and you're not forced to take 0 off just cause you don't know exactly 6.4 seconds elapsed.

It's really not much different than knowing you had a 3 seconds of a 5 second count in the middle of all that action. Take off 3 seconds, or take off nothing just because you don't know exactly how much time elapsed?

I'd take off the 3.

Sounds like 2 seconds off the clock in my association :)

I agree. Even with a count you never have definite knowledge of an exact amount of time due to it being a continuous variable. However you have a close approximation. I think if the crew can agree at least 3 seconds has elapsed than there is no problem taking that much off.