A bit of a mess at an Indiana HS game

deecee

AremRed wrote
1) two of the officials are wearing belts - are you serious? see Billy's response
2) C is leaning side to side during transition - Leaning isn't allowed in your area?
3) neither L nor T close down when W43 pushes off with her arm, or when G2 begins to advance on her - This all happened pretty quick. I don't think Usein Bolt would have made this either.
4) neither L or T attempt to separate the players, instead they stand back and just put their arms in the air - In most HS games, if a scrum erupts my partner(s) and I just stand back and observe. Let "game management" break things up. At best you can have one official try to slow things down but beyond these 2 knuckleheads there wasn't anything else from the players.
5) L ejects the girl and keeps his arm in the air for 35 seconds while ignoring anything else he should be taking care of - First of your points I can agree with.
6) C allows the woman in the neon green shirt to come on the floor and grab G2 - Should the C have tackled her?
7) none of the officials send the players to their benches - I agree
8) none of the officials notice two opposing coaches confronting each other until too late, twice - Agree here too
9) none of the coaches involved in the confrontation are issued technicals, hopefully they were tech'd later
10) dude in plaid green shirt is allowed to wander all over the court from 0:17 on (could be off-duty cop, def not game admin) - How do you know this?
11) the coaches again confront each other, with an official standing right there not doing anything. Nothing productive can come from this. - Maybe they were making plans for the teams to have a group dinner after the game? You seem to know a lot of what went on the court...

See my response's above.

[deleted]

Freddy wrote
To my understanding this is discouraged anyhow.
Am I correct? Or am I in need of enlightenment?

I'm not sure about the basketball direction, most of my confrontation training comes from soccer. The theory there is to "be the 3rd man in". If the officials are the 3rd person on the scene after the original two players then most of the other players won't try to retaliate. In this situation getting in the area and immediately sending the players to their benches would be best. Certainly one official should hang back and collect player numbers/monitor the benches but the other two officials should be in the middle right away.

Adam

Once the coaches started engaging each other rather than their players, they're all done.

deecee

AremRed wrote
I'm not sure about the basketball direction, most of my confrontation training comes from soccer. The theory there is to "be the 3rd man in". If the officials are the 3rd person on the scene after the original two players then most of the other players won't try to retaliate. In this situation getting in the area and immediately sending the players to their benches would be best. Certainly one official should hang back and collect player numbers/monitor the benches but the other two officials should be in the middle right away.

I think basketball fights are a bit different than soccer fights 😛. Less faking maybe 😀.

If things escalate I can guarantee you the "3rd man in" won't change anything.

Camron Rust

AremRed wrote
1) two of the officials are wearing belts
2) C is leaning side to side during transition
3) neither L nor T close down when W43 pushes off with her arm, or when G2 begins to advance on her
4) neither L or T attempt to separate the players, instead they stand back and just put their arms in the air
5) L ejects the girl and keeps his arm in the air for 35 seconds while ignoring anything else he should be taking care of
6) C allows the woman in the neon green shirt to come on the floor and grab G2
7) none of the officials send the players to their benches
8) none of the officials notice two opposing coaches confronting each other until too late, twice
9) none of the coaches involved in the confrontation are issued technicals, hopefully they were teched later
10) dude in plaid green shirt is allowed to wander all over the court from 0:17 on (could be off-duty cop, def not game admin)
11) the coaches again confront each other, with an official standing right there not doing anything. Nothing productive can come from this.

As deecee said, over half of those points are irrelevant, unreasonable, guesses, or just wrong. You got a few of them right however (5,7,8, and 11). But then again, you don't know if they were using their voices or not on most of those. Maybe they had too many situations that drew their attention to catch all of them. Makes it look more like you just want to bust their chops from your armchair than have a serious commentary.

Camron Rust

deecee wrote
1 T for white and a flagrant for green.

Wouldn't that be a flagrant on both? White committed an unsportsmanlike act that caused green to retaliate by fighting.

[deleted]

deecee wrote
I think basketball fights are a bit different than soccer fights 😛. Less faking maybe 😀.

If things escalate I can guarantee you the "3rd man in" won't change anything.

When soccer players fight, they fight. The flopping happens when they are playing 😛

I know I was nitpicking with the belt and leaning thing but Camron asked me "exactly would you have done that the officials didn't?". I wanted to list everything I saw. Take it or leave it.

Camron Rust wrote
As deecee said, over half of those points are irrelevant, unreasonable, guesses, or just wrong. You got a 2-3 of them right however. Makes it look more like you just want to bust their chops from your armchair than have a serious commentary.

I said I didn't like a single thing the refs did, which after 10 viewings I still don't. You asked me exactly why, and I answered. I didn't list those things until you asked, and I think that proves I'm not just out to bust chops. I listed everything I saw; if you think those thing are irrelevant or guesses, fine. I'm willing to have a "serious commentary" if you like, I think everything I listed was something I would do differently.

just another ref

Camron Rust wrote
Wouldn't that be a flagrant on both? White committed an unsportsmanlike act that caused green to retaliate by fighting.

Not sure if I have anything on white. What she did does not justify the retaliation.

[deleted]

just another ref wrote
Not sure if I have anything on white. What she did does not justify the retaliation.

Yeah that's nothing. Happens all the time in all sports. Green 2 took offense for some reason.

Camron Rust

just another ref wrote
Not sure if I have anything on white. What she did does not justify the retaliation.

I would certainly have nothing on it own, but when it causes retaliation, I don't feel I can ignore it.

just another ref

Camron Rust wrote
I would certainly have nothing on it own, but when it causes retaliation, I don't feel I can ignore it.

I don't think we can go by that. I say "Thank you," but all you hear is "____K you" and assume the worst and retaliate. It happens.

OKREF

Technical foul on white for the dead ball forearm, green is ejected. As for the coaches, I don't know what I would do there. Is them arguing between each a technical foul?

Camron Rust

just another ref wrote
I don't think we can go by that. I say "Thank you," but all you hear is "____K you" and assume the worst and retaliate. It happens.

That is not what I said. If it is something unsportsmanlike, you can sometimes ignore it if it is smaller and deal with it in various ways but when it causes a fighting level retaliation, you can no longer ignore it. I'm not saying a benign action becomes unsportsmanlike because someone incorrectly reacts to it.

JetMetFan

Camron Rust wrote
That is not what I said. If it is something unsportsmanlike, you can sometimes ignore it if it is smaller and deal with it in various ways but when it causes a fighting level retaliation, you can no longer ignore it. I'm not saying a benign action becomes unsportsmanlike because someone incorrectly reacts to it.

Agreed. White #13's action after the foul led to Green #2's actions. That being said it would've been nice had one of the crew reacted to White #13's action when it happened. If someone at least rushes in blowing a whistle maybe - and I stress maybe - Green #2 doesn't do what she did since she may have been aware an official was on the way.

To repeat what I said in my first post, the lack of urgency on the part of the crew is my main concern.

JRutledge

just another ref wrote
Not sure if I have anything on white. What she did does not justify the retaliation.

She appeared to instigate the situation. Either way I am probably dumping both players. It might be a HTBT situation to know if other things were going on or if something was said, but I have no problem with the white player being dumped too.

Peace

jeremy341a

Both players are gone. White's actions are unsportsmanlike and directly led to the fight and all the other extracurriculars. If it was seen it can't be ignored. I'll bet you one thing. She will think twice before giving anyone the get off me nudge in the future.

OKREF

jeremy341a wrote
Both players are gone. White's actions are unsportsmanlike and directly led to the fight and all the other extracurriculars. If it was seen it can't be ignored. I'll bet you one thing. She will think twice before giving anyone the get off me nudge in the future.

Whites actions don't warrant an ejection. No punch and it wasn't flagrant. Would you jet her if the punch didn't happen, I would think no. Just because it lead to green throwing a punch isn't grounds for an ejection, IMO.

Adam

okref wrote
whites actions don't warrant an ejection. No punch and it wasn't flagrant. Would you jet her if the punch didn't happen, i would think no. Just because it lead to green throwing a punch isn't grounds for an ejection, imo.

4-18-2 indicates otherwise.

just another ref

Adam wrote
4-18-2 indicates otherwise.

But in 4.18.2 the initial action, in and of itself, would warrant a technical foul. So it this causes a fight, both players are gone. In the OP the original action, in and of itself, was nothing, in my opinion. That makes a big difference.

[deleted]

Adam wrote
4-18-2 indicates otherwise.

4-18-2 "An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act that causes a person to retaliate by fighting."

I don't see any intentional instigation here, one could argue for unintentional instigation.

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