Simultaneous Foul... or not??
 

GJV last night:

White 14 is fouled by Red 5 while attempting a 3, which was unsuccessful. At same time White 2 pushed Red 11 in the back while jostling for rebound position. Both L and C hit their whistles together.

I was "senior" guy on court ( T @ time of play), and huddled with the crew. We decided that we had a simultaneous foul, when whistles blew the ball was loose on ground.

Both officials reported their respective fouls, and we went to the arrow since there was no team in control at time when play was stopped.

I thought we had called it correctly, but a couple of our "more senior" guys said that we should have called the foul against the shooter, dismissed the contact by White 2 as incidental and have White 14 on the line for 3FT.

HTBT, but any opinions? Did we kick it?

If they're saying a push during a rebound is always incidental if there's a shooting foul, I disagree. In this situation, White-2 cost White-14's free throwing via the advantageous contact.

The ball being loose on the ground indicates that the shot attempt had already ended unsuccessfully, thus making the ball dead. The foul on the shooter had to be the cause of the ball being loose on the floor rather than in the air on its way towards the basket. Therefore, it had to happen prior to the ball being on the floor. The off ball foul wasn't called until the ball was on the floor. That would have to be a dead ball foul. I would have ignored the off ball foul, unless it was intentional or flagrant, and award the 3 shots. If the off ball foul was intentional or flagrant, it would be a technical foul and both fouls would have been penalized.

The description in the op wasnt that bad but i dont think your timeline matches.

My timeline? I quoted the OP. "When the whistles blew, the ball was loose on the ground." Those weren't my words, they were from the author. Ball on the ground means shot attempt is over and the ball is dead. At that point, off ball foul should be ignored unless it is intentional or flagrant. Seems pretty simple to me.

Ball on the ground.has nothing do with anything. Fouls on a 3pt shooter are often late in occurring and often called as shooting fouls when they are not.

Pending a better timeline/description we are stuck.

I thought I was accurate in describing the play.. What questions do you guys have?

What was the status of the ball when the fouls occurred?

Adam,

Ball was bouncing (loose) on court when whistles sounded.

When the whistles sounded isn't relevant. POI is based on when the ball became dead, which is not when the whistles sounded. It's when the fouls occurred.

If the fouls occurred while the shot was in the air, go to the arrow if he missed. If it was when the ball was still in the shooter's hand, then A gets the ball back based on POI.

I'm confused. How could there possibly be a foul against an airborne shooter and a simultaneous foul by Awhomever while jostling for rebounding position...with the whistles for both blowing while the ball is bouncing on the court? That's a lot of hang time.

What was the status of the ball when the fouls occurred? It doesn't matter when the whistles sounded.

Since when does a loose ball on the ground make it dead after a 3 point attempt? Are you sure you're not confusing this with a FT Attempt?

I think he's trying to figure out whether the shooter is considered to be an "airborne shooter" and going from there.

Bryan,

According to C, ball was in the air when her foul occurred.

Either way, airborne shooter or not, did both of the fouls actually occur at the same time? It doesn't matter when the whistles blew, just when the fouls actually happened.

If one foul actually occurred first, you penalize that foul and ignore the other. UNLESS, that "other" foul is flagrant or intentional.

When there was a foul on the shot, the ball remains live until the try is over.

Ball hit floor once when whistles sounded..

That's true, otherwise you would hardly ever have an "and one". But I don't recall that rule applying to this case.

I'm avoiding a simultaneous, or multiple, foul as much as possible. I feel like we're talking ourselves into trouble (or at least an unnecessary lengthy explanation to the coaches) here.

Forget when the whistles sounded. It's not about when the whistles sounded in this case, it's about when the fouls actually occurred. At the same time, or one before the other? That's it.

According to my teammates, they did. R11 ended up on the floor after being pushed.

We discussed issuing a flagrant against W2, but L thought that there wasn't any malice, nor premeditation. We thought given the state of the game at that time ( 3:24 left in 4th, Red up by 18), that the simultaneous was the correct call.

Some will say state of the game is irrelevant. Others will say go with the foul on the shot and forget the other, regardless of the state of the game.

Consult your local listings.

We did bring coaches together, and both seemed satisfied with the decision. Of course White wanted the 3 FT, but calmed down after we explained our reasoning. Total conference time with the coaches was 15-20 seconds...

Not always true, and this play might be one.

A1 releases ball.

A1 is fouled. Ball is still in the air and is live.

A2 fouls while ball is in the air, but after A1 is fouled.

Or, A1 releases ball.

B1 moves into A1's landing space and at the same time A2 pushes B2 moving for rebound position.

The last one is a simultaneous foul; the first two are false double fouls.

Or,
A1 is fouled.

Ball goes below ring.

A2 pushes B2.

Because of recognition timing of the officials, the whistles sound sulitaneously.

Here, we ignore the second foul.

Both fouls (by rule) are penalized.

Or,
A1 starts try and is fouled.

A1 releases ball on try.

A2 fouls.

Again, both fouls are penalized.

I can't find a case like this, but I would only use the rule about the ball remaining live throughout the shot to determine if the shooter gets one or two free throws. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just looking for further clarification.

I am assuming that it isn't David Blaine shooting while doing his levitation trick or Neo shooting in the Matrix. Most of the time a person shooting a jump shot is going to land long before the ball hits the floor. If the shooter is no longer airborne, the ball becomes dead when it is certain that the shot is not going to be good. I think when the ball is bouncing on the floor, the shot isn't going to be good.

Wow. You guys really like to split hairs. What matters here is that you had two whistles, the crew came together, and a decision was made based on their judgement in that game. This all sounds like good mechanics which gave them credibility when explaining it to the coaches. When we evaluate refs in my chapter we focus mostly on mechanics and rules unless something is agregious. Judgement is judgement and I don't want to question a fellow refs judgement unless they were clearly in the wrong. When the crew mentioned in this post came together and determined that the fouls occured at the same time, they did exactly what they should have done. Without seeing it on tape that's the only conclusion I can clme too.

The ball remaining live during a shot attempt has nothing to do with whether or not the person who shot the ball gets free throws or how many free throws. The ball remains live during the shot attempt. The shooter is only a shooter until they land. They can shoot a jump shot, land while the ball is still in the air, get fouled and not shoot any free throws. In this case, the basket would count and team A would either get the ball out of bounds at spot nearest where foul occurred or would shoot free throws if his team was in the bonus. They would not get one free throw for being fouled during an attempt nor would they get two or three free throws if the shot was unsuccessful. My point was that is not very likely that the person shooting a 3 point shot is still an airborne shooter when the ball is bouncing on the court. Therefore, the ball is only live until the shot ends. The shot ends, when it is certain it isn't going to be good. If the ball is bouncing on the floor, than the shot can no longer be good.

Just clarifying a tertiary point. An airborne shooter does not keep the ball live. The ball becomes dead when the try is over regardless of whether the shooter has landed.

Not quite. The rebounding foul, even if it is second, can still be during a live ball and can/should still be penalized in some cases even if it is not intentional/flagrant.

Had this play in an NCAA scrimmage. Final Four official observing said we need to go with the shooting foul and rule the rebounding foul as incidental contact (which is what the 2 officials decided, they just took too long to accomplish it).

So, basically what johnny d said.

Right or wrong? It's right when I'm working for certain supervisors.

I agree with Rich1.

I've been taught that if you're going to call something off ball then have knowledge as to the status of the ball. It helps me know whether I've got a live ball contact foul to call or a dead ball no-call or worse.

Getting together is good.

Getting together and getting it right is better. The definition of "right" depends on the exact timing -- and that's what much of this discussion has been about.

Dead ball contact.
 

Ignore or penalize. Judgement.