Vid request-Uconn BC First half 1:55 (Clip Added)
 

Is this the sort of block that the NCAA wants? What do you all have at the HS level. Too me this is great defense and exactly what the "new rule" was trying to get players to do: hands off and move your feet.
Thoughts?

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PC at high school level. Should have been here as well...I can't see what the defender did to lose LGP.

Agree. PC, and not really that close.

And given the way the T (who had primary coverage on the play) started walking towards the other end, it seems he was expecting a PC call too.

Push It (Salt-N-Pepa, 1986) ...
 

When most people hear, "player control foul", they think "charge". This is a good example of a player control foul that is not a "charge", but a "push" (with the left arm). Plus, I don't think that you forfeit your "right" to be illegally pushed, by a player in control of the ball, by not having legal guarding position.

It seems clear from the video that the T is looking directly at this play and it appears to be in his PCA (though admittedly headed toward C). I can't help but wonder why he didn't put a whistle on this? :confused:

I do not have anything on the defender for sure. I probably do not have a PC foul either at any level either. The extended arm does not appear to be the reason their is separation, it looks like the momentum of the players is what caused the separation, not an illegal action. Play on IMO.

Peace

IMO,

The arm extension by the offensive player created the space. I completely agree with B-MAC, and would add this type of seperation doesn't get called enough. The added emphasis on good defense makes this play stand out even more.

His momentum was towards the C and the shove sent him towards the endline. :/

I can see you have never seen a player extend their arm and not be the reason a player was separated from contact. And this did not seem like the movement of the defender was caused by the arm extension. And someone that does football, I see this kind of movement all the time with a receiver and secondary player going after a pass. I am not convinced that this was all based on the arm, but based off on the fact the ball handler stopped his momentum and moved in another direction and then as expected a defender moving backwards is not going to just stop on a dime. I guess you call a foul every single time an arm is extended by a dribbler too. :rolleyes:

Peace

Let's see...the defender is moving toward the far sideline. Dribbler sticks forearm in defenders stomach and shoves him, changing defenders direction to toward the endline.

But there is no illegal contact there??? That shove did not cause the separation???

Good grief.

Well let us see. The official on the game called a foul on the defender, not the offensive player. So whatever he saw, he clearly did not think it was a foul on the action with the arm. Now that is debatable as to why this play was asked for. And when I saw the play live, I felt nothing should have been called. Sorry, that you do not see the plays like this I see all the time. And even with the new directives I still see no foul. There is contact in basketball. And there is certainly contact in men's or boy's basketball.

Peace

:rolleyes:

You all just don't have the experience and perspective that JRut has.

If you have not seen that play many times in different forms, then NO YOU DO NOT have the experience. That is why we get paid the big bucks.

Peace

And yet you still get it wrong. Being confident about your mistakes doesn't make them correct.

Oh my.....

Oh, based on whom? You? Since when did I work a single game for you?

Thanks for that laugh on that one.

Peace

Every single person in this thread except you.

If I were assigning, I probably wouldn't use officials who make up stuff to justify incorrect calls so you would never be working for me.

It is because of blown calls like this one, and the refusal of officials such as Mr. Rutledge to make a call on plays like this one, that we have such strong directives coming down from the NCAA.

And of course, none of us have ever worked anything even remotely close to the level of ball that takes place in that one certain area of the country where things are done in the only correct way.

Oh well.

Since when do we need to be one of your assignors to tell you that you're wrong?

I am just curious as to how you think a call (correct or incorrect) or non-call on this type of play is in any way remotely related to the "strong" directives coming from the NCAA on the men's side? Perhaps the NCAA-W directives are different (I wouldn't know), but this type of play has nothing to do with the directives on the men's side. Your statement above is pure hyperbole.

You can tell me whatever you want to tell me. But since I do not work for you or you are not a supervisor or camp director I am trying to work for, what your opinion is on the matter is really irrelevant. I gave my opinion on what I saw on the play. You gave your opinion on what you saw on the play and the official in question did not call what you suggest I am so wrong about. The official called a "block" against the defender. He did not call a push off PC foul. Now what are you going to do, tell him he cannot work anymore?

Peace

He doesn't know because he does not work Men's College ball. And if anything if this was about the directives from the NCAA Men's side, this was properly called. After all there was contact with a dribbler and you could make a case that the contact was illegal on the defender's part based on the "Freedom of Movement" philosophy. But I do not think RSBQ was affected by the defender and why I think at most this is a no-call.

Peace

If your understanding of the directives and freedom of movement expressed here were on target the defenders in your game might as well just wait on their end of the court for the other team to take an open layup.

It is obvious to me based on your comments, you are not in an area that really breaks down plays. We break down plays here. This kind of play is talked about in detail and if the defender did anything wrong and if the arm was illegal. And I am confident that a lot of people would have had different opinions as to the level of contact and advantage. And that is why I used the football example because in PI plays, there is a lot of debate of when or if contact influenced the play and a foul should be called. And in those videos there are situations where officials have been accused of being "too technical" in their calling such fouls. Sorry, you do not understand that fact or even want to discuss. I never said you were wrong, I just said that I do not think the arm was the result of the contact being illegal. Oh well.

Peace

In our staff meeting one one ever talked about off hands of the dribbler. But that being said, I have called many fouls with the off hand of the dribbler in my career and I can think of just last year being something I called multiple times. Unless you can remind me of one, I do not recall a single play in the video showing such a call where the dribbler should be called for a play like this one referenced. And I have watched the video about 3 times and the freedom of movement stuff is also not new to this year. This stuff has been in place ever since John Adams took over as the Supervisor of the NCAA. And he in some ways has been preaching this stuff before he got in that post and I went to his camps on about 3 different occasions. Maybe you know better than everyone, but I would like the reference to the video. I will look at the video again, but I doubt I will see this play or kind of play referenced as a foul on the dribbler.

Peace

Contact on/by the ball handler is not one of the directives from the NCAA???

Show us where this play is in the video? Or show the reference in the rulebook to this kind of action. You say it is there, well I am from Missouri. ;)

Peace

I'll second this motion.

Jrut, what did the defender do wrong?
He didn't move into the ball handler. He didn't touch the ball handler with either hand. He moved laterally to maintain position. The ball handler never got head or shoulders or anything beyond the defender. If you want to no call this, I could buy into that as there was potentially no advantage gained, but I just can't see a foul on the defender. IMO, this is exactly what the directives are to encourage, actual defense by moving the feet and staying in front without using the hands all of the time. At least answer what the defender did to deserve a foul call. Thanks.

What???

Have you been drinking or something?

The play posted was absolutely contact by/on a ballhandler.

References in the rulebook to contact on/by a ballhandler?? Uhmmm, there are quite a few.

Officials break down plays everywhere, JRut. Including on this Forum. Including right now in this very thread. This is an ad hominem attack.

No one is saying this, and it is absurd to suggest that anyone here is saying this. In fact, this is a Slippery Slope argument.

JRut, I have noticed you tend to defend officials based on the level that they work. I have rarely, if ever, seen you disagree with a D1 official on what he called. In cases like these, you seem to try to find justification for what he saw and why he called what he did. You are doing that in this very thread.

I have yet to see a poster in this thread agree with your defense of the block call. Numbers alone cannot quantify who is right, but with 1 person in this thread defending block and 8 or 9 defending PC this seems to suggest you are alone in your belief.

Sigh.

Keep it from getting personal, folks.

What is clear is that you live in an imaginary world and only see what you want to see on videos. Your descriptions of the play in this case and all too many other cases just don't match what is in the video...sometimes to the point of absurdity. It isn't even a matter of breaking down the play, you actually have to be honest about what is clearly visible on the video before you can properly break down plays. When you fabricate things that just aren't there to make your point, you lose all credibility. I know things are different in Chicago and maybe that is the way things are done in your area but the rest of the country calls plays based on what really happened.


I had typed a bunch more stuff here but decided to delete it. The obvious doesn't need to be posted.

All this discussion (which I, thankfully, missed) over one missed call.

Just because I felt left out…

On the NCAAW side there would be a call here. I’m not going to jump into the debate on what the call would/should be but yes, NCAAW would expect a whistle on this play.

The defender was moving sideways, but suddenly fell backwards. Looks like a PC foul to me.

Personally, I think defenders are too often to blame for contact.

Apparently this is the most important issue to some of these people.

Peace

You seem obsessed with the level we are talking about on more than one occasion. Even in basic plays you talk about, "Well in high school that is a foul......" Well I can tell you I do not call anything differently from the college level to the high school level as it relates to contact. I have the same approach and call the same game. The difference is often the overall training that officials at the college level tend to have and the philosophies they subscribe to. The only thing I ever worry about when working a college game or a high school game is the rules that might apply which is a minimal difference. Actually this year there is a major difference and that is only with the block/charge with an airborne shooter. But how I called hand-checking, illegal screens and other things the NCAA talked about was never that different for me. And if those I worked for did not like it, they could hire someone else. Well I have never been fired for calling my game and in many cases got more games as a result of my approach. Our state now has started to adopt the RSBQ philosophy and we have been doing this for years and talking about for years as clinicians at the high school level. So honestly, I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

BTW, this was my very first statement on this play in this very thread.

Where did I defend the official in this play?

Reading is fundamental.

Peace

Why was it called against the defender? It was absolutely a foul on the ball handler right?

Oh and show them please? Remember there are two different rulebooks now. ;)

Peace

Yes, reading is fundamental. But so is watching the video with a basic understanding of elementary physics. Without both, you may come to a nonsense conclusion.

My point and the primary point being made by most was not about you defending the block call but claiming that the defender's momentum caused the separation and not being due to the offensive player pushing off. Anyone who has successfully completed elementary science would know different yet you persist in claiming that the defender's momentum is responsible for him dramatically changing direction. I suggest you go read up a little bit on what momentum is. But somehow, I doubt that your reading it would help.

I've noticed this as well. You just said it better then I was going to.

Seems to be a pretty clear offensive foul to me.

Why is this a play on? The defense player doesn't make contact. The offensive player displaces the defensive player. I am sure if the defense player would have extended his arm and displaced the offensive player you would have had a foul on him. Why does the offense get a pass?

I did not say there was absolutely no contact. And contact in itself is not a foul guys. The rules for incidental contact did not go away with these new directives (that really are not new, just put directly in the rules in NCAA Men's). And in the official's position he felt right or wrong that the defender moved towards the ball handler. I do not agree with that call, but I can see why he made that call. And in my opinion the way the ball handler stopped the defender kept going backwards.

First of all I call more PC fouls than anyone on this site. If you do not believe me, I will show you tape. I almost never call blocks on these kinds of plays. So this crap about why the offense gets a pass is silly and stupid if you have either officiated with me or heard me give a presentation on these kinds of plays. I just do not think the movement was the cause of that arm. I think I have the right to feel that way. IT IS CALLED JUDGMENT!!!!! I think if he was pushed off, he would have fell down based on his momentum or he would have been totally off balance. He basically stayed in front of him and that is not a foul to me. Ball handlers often give the motion with their arm, that does not mean they displaced their opponent.

Peace

This play is a block/charge play. It is not a hand checking or freedom of movement play. This is not the type of play that lead to the directive on the NCAA-M side.

We can argue all day whether or not the right call was made. I wasn't addressing that issue at all. But it is ridiculous to suggest that this type of play and the possibility that it wasn't called correctly have anything at all to do with the NCAA-M directive.

To summarize: This is a video of a bad call. Why was this bad call made? Hard to say, but making this bad call does not make the official who made it a bad person, but, with the benefit of slow motion replay which we are fortunate enough to have here, I feel certain that the official in question would agree that it was, indeed, a bad call. Practically everyone else does.

What caused the movement? The defender was moving laterally, then arm extended, and moves backwards. Did the defender just start moving backwards on his own?

It is a block-charge play that you could argue either way.

Again this is about judgment. This is why when most clinicians evaluate officials they do not go around arguing whether a judgment was right or wrong. They often discuss why they saw on any given play. I would like to know why the official called this foul. After all he did have a differnet angle and called a block, not something I am arguing should have been called. I think the so-called "push off" you keep referencing was not much or any of a push off. Just because someone's arm moves does not make those situations a foul. And even in hand-checking, you have to affect RSBQ to have a foul. A simply touch where the arm is retreating or not extended does not necessarily fit the directives of the NCAA. I am once again not asking you to agree. I have just seen a lot of similar plays where I am not convinced the ball handler pushed off. Then again I have seen a lot of plays where I feel the dribbler pushed off and have called fouls based on that action. Usually making those calls gets you a lot of crap and a coach starts talking about how the defender was "moving." And yes, I am saying this play to me was nothing. It was two players basically bumping into each other with no clear advantage. I have a right to feel that way. I have seen this play before many times. If you want to call a foul, go right ahead. I would not honestly care because it is your judgment. That is after all why we get paid to make these decisions. And in a game 1920 seconds you can make a decision on any given play. This is just one of them and not a game changer either way. This call did not decide the game and the calling official (who I give more credit for) called a block on this play, not a PC foul like you and others suggest are the only way to go.

Peace