Loose Ball: Foul or Not

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by grunewar

The new L appears to got caught well behind the play and the various camera angles show just how important positioning is IMO.

I don't know if positioning is a huge issue here. I've heard it a lot the past couple of years: officiate what's in front of you, not what may happen. There was a scramble on the floor and he stuck with it until it became apparent Houston had the ball. By the time he turned to go guys were already at the division line. It happens. I don't think his angle was that bad that he couldn't see Blake's contact on Lin.

[bob jenkins]

No foul.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

For an NBA game I can see not calling the foul but if you don't call the foul, call the travel.

For NCAA/HS, call the foul.

Why the difference?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No foul.

Why no foul?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Why the difference?

Mainly because it's the NBA. I wouldn't be against a call but a no-call isn't a shock.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Why the difference?Why no foul?

Incidental contact. Esp. article 2.

NFHS. I would call a foul on this play. If I had the endline angle and the play coming toward me I would call an intentional foul based on 4-19-3a, "Contact that neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position", and 4-19-3d, "Excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball".

Blake may appear to be ahead of Lin in the race to the ball, but Lin still has an obvious advantageous position to try to secure the ball. Instead of Blake going directly for the ball, he initiates contact into Lin prior to playing the ball, to have an uncontested chance at securing the ball.

[APG]

Originally Posted by AremRed

NFHS. I would call a foul on this play. If I had the endline angle and the play coming toward me I would call an intentional foul based on 4-19-3a, "Contact that neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position", and 4-19-3d, "Excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball".

Blake may appear to be ahead of Lin in the race to the ball, but Lin still has an obvious advantageous position to try to secure the ball. Instead of Blake going directly for the ball, he initiates contact into Lin prior to playing the ball, to have an uncontested chance at securing the ball.

I can see one calling a foul on this play (though I'd have a no-call as well). But I don't think this even comes close to being an intentional foul. This is no where close to an obvious advantageous position for Lin...they're basically stride for stride for the final portion of the play.. I also think it's a huge stretch to consider this excessive contact.

[Adam]

I've got a foul, as throwing your shoulder into the opponent is the opposite of incidental, IMO.

But I'd have a real hard time justifying an intentional.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by AremRed

NFHS. I would call a foul on this play. If I had the endline angle and the play coming toward me I would call an intentional foul based on 4-19-3a, "Contact that neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position", and 4-19-3d, "Excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball".

Calling an intentional foul in this play falls into the category of “looking for trouble.” Trouble can find us on the court on a good day. Don’t try to find it on your own. Intentionals/F1s and Flagrants/F2s will usually call themselves.

[Raymond]

If I saw the play from the camera's angle I would. On the court I don't think any official was in position to see it.

[Lotto]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No foul.

The contact does not seem incidental to me and creates and advantage in going for the loose ball. I would call this foul at any level.

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No foul.

I agree. Equal and favorable positions, both shoulders come in and meet and the player in front has the better chance of gaining posession of the loose ball. White just takes the fall because of the course of play, not illegal action. An ex-NBA official once instructed to follow the path of the players during loose ball plays (straight line run toward the ball, angle, etc.) and also consider their speed.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

I agree. Equal and favorable positions, both shoulders come in and meet and the player in front has the better chance of gaining posession of the loose ball. White just takes the fall because of the course of play, not illegal action. An ex-NBA official once instructed to follow the path of the players during loose ball plays (straight line run toward the ball, angle, etc.) and also consider their speed.

I would have agreed with your assessment had Blake just gone straight to the ball. However, he didn't. He chose to throw his shoulder into Lin to knock him off his path. That makes it a foul. The new L, from his position was in a poor position to referee that play. He may have been in a poor position because he was doing the right thing at the other end, but that doesn't mean he had a great view. From the first 3-4 replays, I had no foul on the play. Once they showed the endline view, I had an obvious foul.

[brainbrian]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

From the first 3-4 replays, I had no foul on the play. Once they showed the endline view, I had an obvious foul.

I think this would be a great video to use to teach the difference positioning can make.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I don't know if positioning is a huge issue here. I've heard it a lot the past couple of years: officiate what's in front of you, not what may happen. There was a scramble on the floor and he stuck with it until it became apparent Houston had the ball. By the time he turned to go guys were already at the division line. It happens. I don't think his angle was that bad that he couldn't see Blake's contact on Lin.

I agree with you that the official was correct in staying with the play during the scramble for the loose ball and that Houston controlling the ball put him at a huge disadvantage relative to the players that were already leaking out to go the other way.

I have to disagree when you say that his angle wasn't so bad that he couldn't see Blake's contact. From where he was at, he probably could see the contact, but I don't think he could see how much better postion Lin was in to get to this ball than Blake. From the angle the official was at, which is pretty similar to the first views of the play, this looks like a 50/50 play and I would go with incidental contact if that was our only view. I am not faulting the official from going with that call based on where he was. With the benefit of looking at the replay from the other angles it is clear that Lin is going to get the ball until Blake contacts him from a disadvantageous position. Therefore, I think the correct call was a foul on Blake. Again, given the circumstances and the positioning of the official, I think he made the best decision he could based on what he could see.