LDB or not?
 

Here's a play I had last night... This is what we got to look forward to in regards to fast breaks with the LDB in play now. I'll let you look at it before I tell you some of the explanations I received in regards to this play

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It looks to me like the second black player got the ball inside the LDB -- so this should have been a charge.

that said, it's difficult to tell (especially in live action) and "when in doubt she's out" -- so go with the arc being in effect and the block.

Seems like everything last year was a charge on this and now this year they have talked about it so much, it is now going to be mostly blocks! Have to raise that scoring average all over the country.

Tough for you as L to see that she caught the ball in the LDB...did the C come in with information for you? I would have, even after you empahtically signalled the block at pointed at the restricted area.

That seems like what is going to have to happen - the outside officials are going to HAVE to come in with that information.

I agree with this.

It would be easier if the whole LDB was outlined or shaded.

Did JRut approve his school being used for a Women's game? :D

For us non-NCAA folks... what's LDB, and why does it matter?

I don't like the fact that this is a block....it probably is but I still don't like it. That defender made great play to get position on both the first opponent and then to force the pass and still get position in front of the second opponent.

Lower Defensive Block.

If the offense begins her move in the LDB, then the RA (restricted area / arc) does NOT apply.

I agree, this is an example of why I don't like the RA.

Ok, so let me get this straight... on a block-charge play like this one, you have to now keep track of:

1) Did the defender obtain legal guarding position?
2) is defender inside the arc or not?
2) did offensive player "begin her move" inside the lower defensive block or not? And how do we define "begin her move"?

Is this just NCAAW, or does it apply to NCAAM as well?

Either way, this makes me glad that I only work FED basketball.

No, it shouldn't be a block. NCAA-W added the LDB...if the offensive player starts her move inside the LDB, then the RA does not apply. In this posted play, the official called a block because of the RA, but the C should have come in and let the L know that the RA was off because of the LDB.

RA =Restricted Area
LDB = Lower Defensive Box...from second lane space to 3 feet outside lane line and down to end line.

Only NCAA-W.

And you need to change the order of your points. They should be in the order of 3, 1, 2.

The NBA has the lower defensive box as well.

Or did they. I thought that was part of the issue above was that it was right on the largely invisible line. I was assuming that point in my comments.

From what I can see this shouldn’t have been a block. The offensive player started her move in the LDB and B1 obtained LGP before the crash. Jeschmit, you did what you had to do in terms of making the call. Your C needed to come over and provide information.


The upper portion is invisible but we can still use visual cues as a guideline. On this court the top of the LDBs are midway through that “Summit” logo. It looks like A2 started her move – though it wasn’t a long move – inside the LDB. It’s definitely going to be a challenge in any situation – fast break or half court – to handle this regardless of whether we’re on or off-ball.

LDB. PC foul. But it will unfortunately take us a while to get good at it, in some of these types of plays, I think.

Don't know anything thing about NCAA-W rules or LDB since we don't use that on NCAA-M side, but don't you guys still have the rule that all defenders in the arc are secondary defenders on odd numbered breaks and wouldn't that supersede the LDB?

Nope. If LDB is in play, RA goes away.

I agree. This is the definition of the LDB play.

Since the official pointed to the RA he communicated that he had a charge (at the defender established LGP) BUT the secondary defender was in the RA. Since the RA did not exist because the offense started the drive in the LDB, we have a charge.

-Josh

Fast break
 

If this happens in my game tomorrow, it's a block every time. I'm saying this is a fast-break situation throughout the entire play, which makes every defender a secondary defender.

Until Ms. Williamson says the LDB is in effect on a fast break (which would supersede rule 4-35 Art. 2), I have a hard time buying that the expectation is that we judge when a fast break situation ends.

Then forgive me, but I think you're going to run into some problems with your supervisor. Unless you received a different interpretation than I did, the last half of 4-35.1 supercedes 4-35.2.

This applies to fast-break and halfcourt situations.

We don't have to judge that. And she doesn't need to explicitly state what you've suggested needs to be, since the rules already spell it out in 4-35-1, 10-1-13, and especially AR 94. You might want to reach out in your area for some clarification and pregame about that. A lot. Because you're mistaken.

There was a play on the video (with the animated players) where there was a fast break, a pass to a player in thge LDB, a move to the basket, and a crash. Ruling: PC. Just like the OP.

Thanks Bob
 

Good call on the video...I just re-watched and Bob is spot on.

Thanks for clarifying, everyone...that's why the board exists.

This was tough for me (obviously, that's why I posted it haha). If you watch my mechanics, you'll see that I get ready to bang it as a charge, and in mid-mechanic, I notice that the secondary defender's feet are in the RA. Therefore I switch it to a block. Last year, this would have been 100% the correct call...

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Your points are correct. That's a lot to think about in that tenth of a second you have to decide and call a play!

I disagree. I think that 1) you need to call the play (LGP). 2) Take note of the RA (in or out). Then 3) Realize where the play originated from, and then make the correct call. There's a lot there to take in!

why did you switch the video to private?

My mistake... It has been changed so you can see it now.

Thanks for sharing. I work on the men's side, but I'm familiar with the new LDB and this play would be hard to adjudicate. So much to consider. Luckily you got this play under your belt in November :D

On the men's side, it's not so hard, didn't have legal guarding prior to the start of the upward motion and in the RA. That makes 2 blocks :cool:

A factor?
 

Lower Defensive Box (LDB)/Restricted Area (Rule 10-1.13).

Play 2: Player A2 is outside the LDB when she jumps into the air and receives the ball. When she receives the ball, she is over the LDB and then lands in the LDB.
Play 2 Ruling: Player A2 is in the LDB when she receives the ball because she is over the LDB when she catches it. Where she left the floor does not determine her position because she did not have the ball when she left the floor. The location of an airborne player in relation to the LDB is whether she is over the LDB when she receives the ball.

Most of us said that the player was in the LDB when she received the ball, so I don't think this NCAAW interp changes this discussion.

I am NOT surprised by the interp -- over = in for both the LDB and the RA.

Agreed. It's simply an extrapolation of A.R. 98.