Continuous Motion (video)
 

One clip, two plays.

Thoughts?

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I am giving the basket for both. The second play I guess it is when you actually call the foul. And you could make a case that second play is a game interrupter.

Peace

Obviously incorrect on the first play. I'm really having a hard time seeing the contact on the second play.

Thoughts? My first was "showcase" and my second was "time and score".

First play he traveled before the release.

Second play I don't see a foul.

I'm counting both baskets.

Thanks for posting the clips

I'm counting both baskets although, like others have said I don't have a foul on the second. On the first play, I don't think the official should wait so long before waving it off. If he's not going to count it, do so immediately. Don't wait for the ball to bounce around the rim and go in. Just my opinion.

Count the basket in both plays

I'm in the club of those who didn't see a foul on the second play. When working games at this level, we have to remember that "continuation" can't be called like it is in the NBA (where it begins in the parking lot).

Help me with this.
Play #1 seems more a matter of "act of shooting", i.e. whether or not the player began "the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball" than a matter of "continuous motion."
Is it not correct that continuous motion is reserved for when a foul occurs which prohibits the release of the ball but the continuous motion the player whose act of shooting had begun must be considered so that the proper two FT's be awarded though the ball never got "in flight" due to the foul that occurred while in the act of shooting?
One reason I'm tending to think in this way is that Rule 10 PENALTIES, though specifying conditions where "act of shooting" determine whether one or two FT's are awarded, "continuous motion" is never mentioned as a consideration in any case.
I'm trying to keep "continuous motion" and "act of shooting" as each defined by Rule 4 seperate, though obviously related.
Seems to me that "continuous motion" is becoming sorta an umbrella term describing any foul committed while a player is in the "act of shooting", and I'm struggling with whether that is a good thing.
Any help for my understanding?

Seeing as the rules are pretty much the same at all levels of play, there's no reason why you shouldn't be calling it similar.

The fact of the matter is at the high school level, there are too many officials waving off too many plays that should be in the act, and justify it by saying "this isn't the NBA" or some variation of that statement.

Even if he traveled it's still would be a shooting foul. Wave off the basket and indicate 2 shots.

Either way you don't stand there watching the ball bounce around the rim before waving the shot off.

Travel really? SMDH!!!!

Peace

Both are shooting fouls.

NFHS 4-11-1

Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.

The only thing that shocks me about your response is it took so long :) I had the same reaction to the post as you.

JAR, I have the dribble ending when A1 put both hands on the ball which would make him legal. Where do you have the dribble ending?


My first thought on play #2 was "Don't go fishing in another man's pond." C had a better look at that play and let it go, so given it wasn't a felony offense...let it go.

It took so long because I had a scrimmage this morning for football. I am honestly not shocked it was pointed out, but I cannot believe that even a travel was even an issue.

Peace

I agree. I see absolutely nothing in that clip that would make me think travel. Not even close.

The shot should have counted, no question about that either.


In the second play, I don't have a foul at all....but if there was one, the basket should count.

his left foot is on the floor when he puts both hands on the ball. it returns to the floor before the release.

That is why I called it possiblity a "game interrupter." People do not like the term, but it seems like nothing prevented the player from movement or opportunity to complete a play.

Peace

That is not even close to accurate. A supervisor would not be too happy if you tried to defend that judgment.

I was describing the play from memory which turned out to be lacking. From this angle, I can't actually tell when the second hand touches the ball, but it had returned from the floor and was in the right hand with the left foot on the floor. Would anybody call this in real time? Probably not. I was offering a possible suggestion why he wouldn't count the basket. I would prefer no call at all here to waving off the basket.

Sadly, he was pointing at the floor. As if that has any bearing on the ruling.

Not gonna micromanage a travel on this play. Not even close, IMO. And if a better view reveals a travel, IMO it was caused by the contact. Foul and two shots.

First play is a clear and-one. FIBA actually addressed this a year or so ago, pointing out the tendency to incorrectly wave off shot attempts and FG's. You are splitting hairs at the atomic level calling this 'on the floor'.

Second play = no foul. At all.

I too would count the first as an easy and one, with the second being nothing but some incidental contact that had no bearing on the play. He got beat and he got scored on. Nothing more to it.

What happens after the dribble ends and the ball is gathered? That will help in determining if you should count the basket and/or give a bonus free throw, or give the ball out of bounds. I was watching a bunch of replays from random games over the weekend and we as officials are not good at this. If the ball isn't being released from the chest or eye level, we seem content to not award the basket. So many times, the habitual shooting motion starts at the knees or hips. We must continue to use video review to improve at this. I had an excellent clinician at one of my camps this summer hammer this point home. Several times, she was telling officials that they should have counted the basket. The season will be here before you know it! Let's all get better at this.

Let me pile on...

First one is good, and one. Not even close really. No travel either.

Second one is a weak call, but counting the bucket is right if the foul was called.

No "Atomic Splitting of Hairs" Here
 

One way to "get better at this" is, whether amongst your crew, your group, or your association, to abolish the term "on the floor." That phrase is irrelevant in relation to whether or not the act of shooting had begun prior to the foul.
In your area, work on getting your fellow officials to say "No shot" or "Act of shooting", and, with an understanding of the definition of act of shooting (4-41-1,3), the incidence of depriving the deserved award will lessen significantly over time.
It's working well here. Hope it works well there.
BTW, the FIBA video lesson on this rule ("Act of Shooting") is really very good. Used it in a rules meeting. We could even understand the Canadian language. :)

Many of us do not use that term and it gets used by many anyway. ;)

Peace

As others have said should count on 1, nothing on 2.

I will add on 2 if you aren't counting it 20 seconds earlier on the other end that one should not be an in one either. Even more reason to pass on it as lead.

I've Got The Tar, And The Feathers ...
 

I played a lot of basketball when I was a teen, almost 45 years ago, and I don't remember referees (that's what we called them back then) ever saying, "On the floor". Even going back thirty-plus years to the beginning of my officiating career, I don't remember officials saying that. Exactly when did this start? Who started it?

I was kind of waiting for someone to mention the time element. That's what struck me even more. Not 30 seconds in game time after a play which should have been continuation and wasn't there's a play called as continuation which may not even have been a foul.

I'm with all of you guys who don't have a travel. It didn't even enter my mind.

A lot of people around here use "On the floor", but I wouldn't think of actually lobbying to get them to change. Anyone who did that would be seen as trying to "big time" people or tell them how to officiate.

Maybe people that resist doing things right need to be big timed occassionally! :eek:

I think officials worry too much about what someone else is doing as it relates to the "big time" comment. It is not the right thing to say and correcting that does not mean anything other then trying to to confuse the masses.

Peace

Not Necessarily
 

A person in an elected or appointed role of supervisor or trainer might well choose to make this an association point of emphasis and be rightfully able to sway the masses. It is, after all, his responsibility to -- understand this correctly please -- "tell them how to officiate."
No "big timing" people involved.
Just throwin' that out there......:)

Just Throwin' It Right Back At You ..
 

I know that every state, and local, officiating organization (association, board, etc.) does lots of things differently, thus the common phrase, "When in Rome ...", often appearing on the Forum. I get it.

But let me tell you a little about Connecticut, and my local board.

We're all IAABO here in Connecticut, and one of the most important goals of IAABO is "to educate, train, develop, and provide continuous instruction for basketball officials".

Here in my little corner of Connecticut, and I'm guessing all over Connecticut, we're always trying to improve officials, all officials, rookies, veterans, subvarsity, and varsity, based on the IAABO motto "One rule, one interpretation, one mechanic".

We are constantly trying to help each other to improve. A common phrase heard in locker rooms, stated between partners, or even between both subvarsity, and varsity officials, before, after, and during halftime, of our games is, "So, what did you see out there?", or "Any suggestions?". Yes, a few, especially the inexperienced officials, are timid, but most of us have no problem mentioning things that an official can use to improve their game, or to get in line with our local board's accepted, and expected, practices.

I would have absolutely no problem advising an official, inexperienced, experienced, varsity, or subvarsity, to rid his vocabulary of, "On the floor", and if I did, no one would ever accuse me of "big timing".

Move To Improve ...
 

Coincidently, this past weekend I got an email from one of our local board's grand pubahs, asking me to come up with a list of comments that one official might say to another official to improve their officiating. It's, by far, not a complete list, just something that I quickly jotted down. I just emailed this back:

APPEARANCE AND CONDITIONING
“Wear all black shoes.”
“Street clothes should be business casual.”

MECHANICS
“As the trail, take a step toward the basket on field goals, and free throws. Don’t bail out early.”
“Inbound the ball at the spot closest to the foul, or the violation.”
“Use high school, not college, signals, and mechanics.”
“Switch on all fouls".
“Be sure to stand in the correct position during time outs, and intermissions.”
“Don’t wander around during time outs, and intermissions. If you don’t know where you belong,
then find a line and stand on it.”
“Move to the reporting area to report all fouls".
“Lead official does not echo a successful three point shot signal, only the trail.”
“Blow the whistle louder.”
“Slow down after a double whistle. Don’t be so quick to give a preliminary signal.”
“Sound your whistle, and put up your arm, for all out of bounds calls.”
“Take your time when reporting fouls to the table.”
“On a front court endline throwin, put the ball in play on the proper side of the lane, don’t worry
about making the trail move to the other side.”
“Hand the ball to the inbounder on all front court endline throwins.”
“Don’t bounce the ball across the lane on a front court endline throwin.”

TEAM WORK
“As the lead, don’t be afraid to come ball side if the situation dictates such.”

JUDGMENT
“Train wreaks usually need some type of whistle.”
“Do your job during the pregame warmups. Watch for jewelry, and equipment issues.”
“Be ready for fouls to stop the clock near the end of a close game. Be sure to consider the possibility
of intentional fouls, if the contact warrants such.”

GAME MANAGEMENT
“Try to keep the coach near his coaching box. Do not allow him to stand in front of the table.”

Here in my little corner of Connecticut, we (325 of us) watch each other's backs, we help each other out, we look out for each other, and that includes the unwashed "masses". We treat the guys who work the middle school games, the freshman games, and the subvarsity games, with as much respect as we treat our top varsity officials. The kids playing those games deserve good officiating, and some of those guys working those games will one day be working a high school varsity state tournament game. We all have to start somewhere. We don't leave any of our brother, or sister, officials behind. Everyone is deserving of a route to improvement. Everyone. Yes, occasionally we come across a rookie official that almost all of know is not going to make it, but that doesn't stop us from helping him to improve. Yes, you can lead a horse to water, but not make him drink, but that's not going to stop us from leading.