Ball comes in contact with both hands while dribbling

[potato]

Is it always the case if a dribbler has both of his hand in contact with the ball that the dribble is considered to have ended, whether or not it is intentional or unintentional, maybe A1 is dribbling and using his armbar to protect the ball and somehow the off-ball hand comes in small contact with the ball (so during that bounce both hand comes in contact with the ball either simultaneously or separately), the player did not hold the ball but merely had his non dribbling hand/finger touched the ball, even for half a sec or so.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by potato

Is it always the case if a dribbler has both of his hand in contact with the ball that the dribble is considered to have ended.

Remember that the fact that the dribble has ended is not, in of itself, a violation. It becomes a violation if the ball handler dribbles again after said "double" contact.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by potato

Is it always the case if a dribbler has both of his hand in contact with the ball that the dribble is considered to have ended, whether or not it is intentional or unintentional, maybe A1 is dribbling and using his armbar to protect the ball and somehow the off-ball hand comes in small contact with the ball (so during that bounce both hand comes in contact with the ball either simultaneously or separately), the player did not hold the ball but merely had his non dribbling hand/finger touched the ball, even for half a sec or so.

yes, that's a violation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by potato

Is it always the case if a dribbler has both of his hand in contact with the ball that the dribble is considered to have ended, whether or not it is intentional or unintentional, maybe A1 is dribbling and using his armbar to protect the ball and somehow the off-ball hand comes in small contact with the ball (so during that bounce both hand comes in contact with the ball either simultaneously or separately), the player did not hold the ball but merely had his non dribbling hand/finger touched the ball, even for half a sec or so.

What does the rule say? Are there any exceptions? And, a player shouldn't be "using his arm bar to protect the ball"

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by potato

Is it always the case if a dribbler has both of his hand in contact with the ball that the dribble is considered to have ended, whether or not it is intentional or unintentional, maybe A1 is dribbling and using his armbar to protect the ball and somehow the off-ball hand comes in small contact with the ball (so during that bounce both hand comes in contact with the ball either simultaneously or separately), the player did not hold the ball but merely had his non dribbling hand/finger touched the ball, even for half a sec or so.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Yes, that's a violation.

It is? Why? It only becomes a violation when the ball handler dribbles again. I don't see any reference to a "second" dribble in the original post.

[DrPete]

I believe it was implied in the original post that the ball handler continued with his dribble, after having touched the ball with both hands. That's where the violation occurred.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by DrPete

I believe it was implied in the original post that the ball handler continued with his dribble.

And just exactly where does it say that?

Remember, when you imply, you make an imp out of you, and me (Apologies to Felix Unger).

[potato]

Actually you are spot on on what i meant.

So in short within a dribble, a ball cannot touch both hands whether same time or different and no matter how light the touch was even if it's just the fingernails?

What if the ball handler was trying to protect the ball from a reach in attempt and the defender happens to bump his off ball hand into the ball, and he continues to dribble, would you call it a double dribble or would you see it as unintentional? Since you guys usually don't call for illegal contacts on incidental contacts.

And also would you see the dribble has ended if the dribbler the ball was accidentally caught between his hand & waist for a very brief moment, doesn't look like a hold but contact between hand/ball/waist.

Originally Posted by DrPete

I believe it was implied in the original post that the ball handler continued with his dribble, after having touched the ball with both hands. That's where the violation occurred.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by potato

Actually you are spot on on what i meant.

So in short within a dribble, a ball cannot touch both hands whether same time or different and no matter how light the touch was even if it's just the fingernails?

As stated above (more than once) the touch with both hands ends the dribble. If the ball is subsequently pushed to the floor, not fumbled, this is the start of another dribble and a violation.

What if the ball handler was trying to protect the ball from a reach in attempt and the defender happens to bump his off ball hand into the ball, and he continues to dribble, would you call it a double dribble or would you see it as unintentional? Since you guys usually don't call for illegal contacts on incidental contacts.

Intent has no bearing on a violation. Contact is illegal or incidental. It cannot be both. It can be either one, regardless of intent.

And also would you see the dribble has ended if the dribbler the ball was accidentally caught between his hand & waist for a very brief moment, doesn't look like a hold but contact between hand/ball/waist.

This is a judgment call. If, in the official's opinion, it "doesn't look like a hold" play on.

[Rob1968]

Quote: "As stated above (more than once) the touch with both hands ends the dribble. If the ball is subsequently pushed to the floor, not fumbled, this is the start of another dribble and a violation."
It becomes a violation only if the ball bounces up and is touched by the hand or hands of the ballhandler. If the ballhandler is not first to touch the ball, after pushing it to the floor, the action is the same as a bounce pass.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by potato

...What if the ball handler was trying to protect the ball from a reach in attempt and the defender happens to bump his off ball hand into the ball, and he continues to dribble, would you call it a double dribble or would you see it as unintentional? Since you guys usually don't call for illegal contacts on incidental contacts.
....

• Most fouls and violations are UNINTENTIONAL so that plays ZERO part into this equation
• Illegal contact vs. incidental contact applies to fouls, not violations.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

• Most fouls and violations are UNINTENTIONAL so that plays ZERO part into this equation
• Illegal contact vs. incidental contact applies to fouls, not violations.

And has nothing to do with accidental vs intentional.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by potato

What if the ball handler was trying to protect the ball from a reach in attempt and the defender happens to bump his off ball hand into the ball, and he continues to dribble, would you call it a double dribble or would you see it as unintentional? Since you guys usually don't call for illegal contacts on incidental contacts.

The ball handler shouldn't be doing this:

Art. 5. A player shall not use the forearm and/or hand to prevent an opponent
from attacking the ball during a dribble or when trying for goal. (from NCAA, but FED is similar)

And also would you see the dribble has ended if the dribbler the ball was accidentally caught between his hand & waist for a very brief moment, doesn't look like a hold but contact between hand/ball/waist.

If the ball comes to rest, yes -- and judging that is part of the job.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

It becomes a violation only if the ball bounces up and is touched by the hand or hands of the ballhandler. If the ballhandler is not first to touch the ball, after pushing it to the floor, the action is the same as a bounce pass.

This is debatable. Some agree with you. But from where I sit, this is not true. Read the definition of a dribble. The ball is pushed to the floor once or several times. A subsequent touch is not necessary to meet this definition.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is debatable. Some agree with you. But from where I sit, this is not true. Read the definition of a dribble. The ball is pushed to the floor once or several times. A subsequent touch is not necessary to meet this definition.

Agree. It is just by convention that officials often wait until it is touched again in order to resolve the ambiguity of whether the action is a dribble or a bounce pass.