Jump Ball - Movement Prior to Touch
 

Can I please get a 'rule' reference, whereby the during the jump-ball scenario, any non-jumper may not 'move' ( i.e. mantain their spot) until 'after' the ball has been touched by either/both jumpers?

I know that you cannot come into the center circle prior to the ball being touched, yet I had not found this reference about the movement prior to the ball being touched.

Assistance is appreciated.

You won't find such a rule reference.

Yet Another Reason To Completely Do Away With Jump Balls ...
 

Agree. Because it's not a rule.

I hate it when the referee states, "Don't move", or, "Hold your spots", before tossing the ball.

Any nonjumper can move off the circle at any time; before, during, or after, the referee is ready to toss; before, during, or after, the toss; before, during, or after, the tip. Anytime. All day long. All night long. No violation. No penalty. Never. Ever.

Why would a referee want to state, "Don't move", or, "Hold your spots", before tossing the ball? Stupid referee.

6-3 Jump Ball Adminstration ...
 

ART. 1 For any jump ball, each jumper shall have both feet within that half
of the center restraining circle which is farther from his/her basket.

ART. 2 When the official is ready and until the ball is tossed, nonjumpers
shall not:
a. Move onto the center restraining circle.
b. Change position around the center restraining circle.

ART. 3 Teammates may not occupy adjacent positions around the center
restraining circle if an opponent indicates a desire for one of these positions
before the referee is ready to toss the ball.

ART. 4 The ball shall be tossed upward between the jumpers in a plane at
right angles to the sidelines. The toss shall be to a height greater than either of
them can jump so that it will drop between them.

ART. 5 Until the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers, nonjumpers
shall not:
a. Have either foot break the plane of the center restraining circle cylinder.
b. Take a position in any occupied space.

ART. 6 The tossed ball must be touched by one or both of the jumpers after
it reaches its highest point. If the ball contacts the floor without being touched by
at least one of the jumpers, the referee shall toss it again.

ART. 7 Neither jumper shall:
a. Touch the tossed ball before it reaches its highest point.
b. Leave the center restraining circle until the ball has been touched.
c. Catch the jump ball.
d. Touch the ball more than twice.

ART. 8 The jump ball and the restrictions in 6-3-7 end when the touched
ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or
backboard.

NOTE: During a jump ball, a jumper is not required to face his/her own basket, provided
he/she is in the proper half of the center restraining circle. The jumper is also not required
to jump and attempt to touch the tossed ball. However, if neither jumper touches the ball
it should be tossed again with both jumpers being ordered to jump and try to touch the
ball.

Thanks for the replies. To be clear, prior to and during the 'jump ball' toss (referee tossing and jumper(s) touch) any and all of the non-jumpers can also move around at will w/o penalty?

Also, is the 3 feet behind a player OR a players must be side-to-side also a non-rule ?

Just checking on these 'tried and true' statements?

No Ocupado ...
 

Legal only into a non-occupied space.

The Longest Yard ...
 

This is an actual rule, similar to the three foot area behind a free throw lane space.

Help ...
 

I can't find the rule? What happened to it?

And only once the ball has been tossed.

Found It ...
 

6.3.2 SITUATION: The referee is ready to toss the ball to start the game. (a) A1
who was on the center restraining circle backs off; (b) B1 moves onto the
restraining circle into an unoccupied spot; (c) B2 moves off the circle and goes
behind A2 and is within 3 feet of the circle; or (d) B3 moves off the circle about
5 feet and moves around behind A3 and A4 who are occupying spaces on the
circle. RULING: Legal in (a) and (d), but a violation in both (b) and (c). Moving
off the restraining circle in (a), and around the circle when more than 3 feet away
as in (d), is permissible. It is a violation to move onto the circle as in (b), until the
ball leaves the official’s hand, or into an occupied space as in (c), until the ball is
touched. The violation by B results in a throw-in for Team A. (4-3)

Fire Up The Flux Capacitor ...
 

How Many Of Us Know All These Rules Like The Back Of Our Hands ???
 

Excellent point.

No. No one can move to a new spot on the circle (defined to be within 3 feet of the circle). If they are away from the circle, they can't come up to it. If they are on the circle, they can move off the circle but they can't move to a new spot on the circle.
A player can't be within 3 feet of the circle and be behind another player on the circle.

Because if the players don't move then the official doesn't need to worry about whether they moved on or off or around and whether it was before the ball was tossed or touched.

Our rules interpreter when I was trained recommended stating "Hold your spots around the circle" prior to the toss for a couple of reasons:

It allows for the officials to address ART. 3 if necessary
"Teammates may not occupy adjacent positions around the center restraining circle if an opponent indicates a desire for one of these positions before the referee is ready to toss the ball."

It serves as an indication to the players that the official is ready and therefore:
"until the ball is tossed, nonjumpers shall not:
a. Move onto the center restraining circle.
b. Change position around the center restraining circle."
and
"until the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers, nonjumpers
shall not:
a. Have either foot break the plane of the center restraining circle cylinder.
b. Take a position in any occupied space."

If a player moves legally, for example, backing directly out from the circle without entering an occupied space, the official would carry on as no violation has occured. The official is also not saying for how long the player must hold their spot. It is up to the player to know the rule if they desire to move. A player located off of the center circle could "hold their spot" for a half second as an indication that they do not desire to move onto the center circle, and the continue to move legally.

As for stating "Don't move" ... I can't defend that one. But I do like "Hold your spots around the circle" as a simple game administration technique. It is also the standard practice in my association.

It's standard practice in your association but...my ultimate question would be why is your rules interpreter telling the association to do something that isn't part of the rule book? I know you gave a list of justifications but how am I supposed to trust an interpreter who tells me to do the wrong thing?

By that logic the official should also tell all the players not to foul or commit any violations. The official wouldn't then have to worry about any of those!

I Love It When Nevadaref Speaks Sarcasm ...
 

How about, "Let it hit the rim"?

When In Virginia, Do As Virginians Do ...
 

By all means, when in Rome ...

But your interpreter is 100% wrong, leaving the circle, which is always legal, is not holding your spot around the circle, I don't care how he spins it. As backward as we are here in the Land of Steady Habits (two person games, black belts, etc.), no interpreter around these parts would suggest any such standard practice, individual officials, maybe, but as an interpreter suggested mechanic, no way, José.

Soapbox Time ...
 

Less worries if we just flip a damn coin.

(I hope that Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. is moderating the Cricket Forum and won't read this. He gets a little testy when we discuss jump balls and would prefer to go back to prehistoric times when we didn't have the alternating possession arrow and had dozens of jump balls in a game.)

Yep, and "don't move" or "stay there" on a throw-in.

And, when is the referee "ready to toss"? When s/he (meant in all cases below) blows the whistle? Enters the circle? Asks the captains if their team is heady? If he is ready and then somone moves, can he "unready" himself and re-set or is it always an immediate violation?

There's no definition in the manual but I consider myself (or the tossing official) ready once the whistle is blown prior to the toss. That's a pretty good alert for everyone that we're about to get going.

Backcourt Endline Only ...
 

Maybe it's overkill, but our local interpreter has instructed us to indicate, "That's your spot", accompanied by pointing to the spot, or, "You can move" (Option: "You've got the whole line"), accompanied by a sweeping motion of the arm while pointing, on all backcourt endline throwins, and only backcourt endline throwins. Some will criticize that it's excess verbiage, and signalage, and not necessary, that the kids should already know this, but at least the statements agree with the actual rules. I believe that IAABO mechanics also require this, but I may be mistaken.

Blue Line All The Way Around ...
 

And, "Who's the speaking captain". Wait? I'm being told that that's an actual rule. Never mind.

So you never tell a player, "Get out of the lane!" or "Don't push!"?

It's called preventive officiating. You should try it. It works well.

I have no problem with saying these things if in conveys a message. The coaches and players are supposed to know the rules. And many things we do the players or coaches have no idea what is illegal. Just look at Nate Robinson of the Bulls multiple times violated as a jumper and moved and never tried to jump for the ball. It makes little or no difference to me as long as the comment conveys the right message. And telling players to "not move" is harmless IMO.

Peace

I worked a Pro Am game today. One of the players will be on a D3 coaching staff this season. Last week he was setting questionable rolling screens. Today, before the game, I went up to him and said, "I hope you aren't going to teach your big men that illegal screen this year." He laughed and said "oh, you caught that. It won't be a problem today."

Guess what, he didn't come close to doing today. Preventive officiating is a good thing.
:D

I think, as was pointed out, that this is basically preventative officiating. It's also a recommendation, not a direction that must be followed. Basically, the interpreter who runs the training class for new officials mentioned this as a good game management technique to get the game started without a jump ball violation (which is always preferred) if there is a lot of movement around the circle when you are ready to get started.

If you have players shuffling around the circle or into occupied space before the jump, wouldn't you say something? How long are you going to wait for players to get situated? Hold your spots around the circle accomplishes the goal and technically speaking, your not saying how long they are to hold the spot. So after saying this, players get situated, official blows whistle and administers jump.

Also, I guess if you leave the circle (legally) then you are no longer around the circle and thus don't need to hold the spot.

Probably Going To Have To Agree To Disagree ...
 

No, it's a bad game management technique because it doesn't match the rules. It's like telling players not to "move" on a designated spot throwin, which is wrong because they can move their feet within a three foot wide area, and can move as far back as they can in five seconds. Or it's like telling high school players to let it "hit the rim" on a free throw, which is also wrong because they can legally move into the lane when the ball hits the backboard, which could become an issue if the ball hits the backboard first and then subsequently hits the rim, and the rebound, and an easy putback if it's by an offensive player, is taken by the player who didn't listen to the officials advice and moved into the lane when it hit the backboard, leaving the player who waited for it to hit the rim wondering why his opponent was allowed in the lane "early".

Why put "legally" in parentheses? It's always legal to move away from the circle. It's never illegal to move away form the circle. And when a player is on the circle and leaves the circle he is not "holding his spot", no matter how you spin it. If one player follows your "hold your spot" advice and an opponent, knowing the correct rule, moves away early and gains an advantage, then that's just not fair, and as the player who didn't move watches his opponent go in for an easy layup and looks to you for help, then just what are you going to say to him? Sorry?

I have no problem with preventative officiating by talking to players, I'm just not going to say things to the players that are not factually correct.

NFHS Officials Manual, 2.2 PUTTING THE BALL IN PLAY 2.2.2 C End Line 5. states ; "When the clock is stopped, use the proper verbal and visual signal to indicate whether a spot throw-in or running the end line privileges are in effect." - Signal 26 = Spot Throw-in, Signal 23 = Run End Line.

I haven't found an instruction to ask for the "speaking captain(s)," only the duty to conduct the coach/captain meeting, in 2.1 A Referee's Duties 10. of the Officials Manual.

Rule 2-7-1

I was under the impression that moving away from the circle into an occupied space would be illegal. Am I reading this wrong?

ART. 5 Until the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers, nonjumpers
shall not:
a. Have either foot break the plane of the center restraining circle cylinder.
b. Take a position in any occupied space.

That statement doesn't make sense to me.

If you are moving away from the circle, you can't be moving into an occupied spaced.

If you are moving into an occupied space, you are either moving onto the circle or around the circle.

Close, But No Cigar ...
 

Yes you are. It is only illegal to move into an occupied space on the circle. Players can move as near to players off the circle as they want, short of contact. Spin it any way that you want, but a player is not holding his spot when he moves away from the circle.

Also. I'm not questioning your knowledge of this rule. It sounds like you understand this rule better than me, or many other officials. I'm questioning why you would instruct players to do something that is not factually correct. Sometimes it's better just to keep your mouth shut.

One good outcome of this discussion: I haven't "dissected" this rule in this manner since the institution of the alternating possession arrow. Like many officials, I figure that we're probably only going to have one jump ball a game, hopefully it will go well, if not, I hope that it's an obvious violation that's easy to call, if not, I hope that it's a subtle violation that nobody will care about, so I spend my time studying other parts of the rule book. Back when we had a dozen jump balls a game (dozens in a middle school girls game), I knew all the jump ball rules like the back of my hand. Thanks for giving me the incentive to review these rules in great detail.

Good Mechanic ...
 

Thanks Rob1968. The IAABO Mechanics Manual pretty much says the same thing, just not as well (typical of the IAABO Manual). It's not on my hard drive, please don't make me type it (keyboard it?) out.

Everybody Ready ???
 

2-7-1: The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes: Notifying the captains when play is about to begin at the start of the
game.

3-1-1: Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain.

Rob1968: My reference to, "Who's the speaking captain", was actually done tongue in cheek. I was trying to get a "rise" out of some veteran Forum members. Some Forum members have disagreed about this "mechanic". Some will take the rule quite literally, that there is only one captain, and since they have to notify this one captain at the start of the game, and since almost all varsity teams have more than one captain come to the pregame coaches and captains meeting, they will ask for that one "speaking" captain in the pregame meeting. Some will actually go as far as asking if that "speaking" captain is starting, and, if not, ask for a "substitute speaking" captain that is starting. I guess that it would be unprofessional to just yell over to the captain sitting on the bench to notify him?

Now Don't Get Me Started ...
 

Here's another one of my pet peeves: I've heard officials tell players, who are standing six feet off the jump ball circle, "You can't stand behind him". Stupid monkeys. Sometime it's better to just keep one's mouth shut. Remember, in regard to revealing one's ignorance, you can't quote silence.

I posted something a few months back about officials doing this and folks said they hadn't seen it. I'm glad I'm not as nutty as I thought.

Recently I've started asking partners why the do this...then we go look at the rule book together.

Can't say I have ever heard that one. If I were to hear that in a game, I would defiantly ask at half time why they felt the need to say something like that.

Bring Your Kiddies, Bring Your Wife ...
 

Oh, some of us have seen officials say this, but that still doesn't not make you nutty. After all. You appear to be a fan of both the Mets, and the Jets. Nutty? You have to be. No question in my mind.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/81LcDu_YAh0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I agree: Fortunately, there is only one jump ball per game for officials at our level on this forum of whom are 99.9% non-NBA refs (in contrast there are numerous jump ball situations at the nba level thus distinctly circumspect provisions inhere). And by custom, I've observed that 99.9% of HS players just get a spot around the jump circle and hold still for the 2 seconds it takes to determine the jumpball. And, that 99.9% of nfhs officials just say "hold your spots"--and the pain will be over in 2 seconds.

The percentage of NFHS officials who say this is nowhere near 99.9%. It might be close to 9%, but even that would surprise me. This is the same as those who move everyone behind half court for technical foul free throws. No one thinks twice about it, but it's still wrong.

Like back pedaling. You'll be fine until you aren't.

You're Welcome ...
 

You'll Be Fine Until You Aren't © 2013 Adam

Adam: Now you can start raking in the licensing revenue. And when you become a zillionaire, don't forget your old Forum buddy, BillyMac.

*No, it is not like "back-pedaling". Backpedaling is something officials do to "themselves"; whereas arranging players for the jump ball and admonishing them to "be still" is something that officials do to "others".

You've under-estimated the number of nfhs officials who instruct players to "not move" during the initial jump ball--as evidenced by the mere fact that this issue /thread was started by an nfhs official indicates that even amongst this self-selected group of specialists there exists considerable variation in the practice of this esoteric issue. Perhaps you yourself comprise that 0.1% wh allow players to move about during the initial jump ball. But as I said, this is really an esoteric issue in officiating--there are other more pressing concerns [no pun intended].

The "esoteric" characterization of this issue becomes moot when one reads the NFHS Officials Manual, 2.2.1 B and notes the adsence of any direction to give such instruction to the players, and/or one's Assignor/Evaluator gives instruction/direction to do otherwise.

*Perhaps you ought to look up the definition of "esoteric". By doing so you will come to understand the context of my post.

Wow . . . the universal availability of instruction in the manuals, and directions from supervisors/evaluators regarding their expectations remove any esoteric values from such subjects.

Bob, I've not equated "2-7-1. . . Notifying the captains when play is about to begin at the start of the game.", with "asking for the speaking captain(s)." since one subject deals with the R speaking to the captain(s) while the other seems to be a determination of which player(s) may speak to the officials.

Rolling Over In His Grave ...
 

Sounds like a great topic for a poll. That would really piss off Jurassic Referee.

O Captain! My Captain ...
 

Keeping in mind that I do not ask for "speaking" captains, according to the NFHS rulebook, there is only one captain on a team, who gets certain rights, and privileges (like getting to date the hottest cheerleader).

I, and many of my local colleagues, chose to ignore 3-1-1 (Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain), and will talk to any player who approaches us politely, and we'll notify any of the captains when we're ready to start the game, and will even notify a noncaptain if a captain isn't starting.

But to literally follow the NFHS rulebook, there is one, and only one, captain on each team, and that one captain is the captain that must be notified that the game is about to start.

(Note: When was the last time we had a Walt Whitman reference on the Basketball Forum?)

I get a thumbs up from my partner(s). Then I blow my whistle which notifies all players, not just captains, that we are getting ready to start. I've never once in my entire career notified a captain that the game is about to start.

You should.

Or use 3-1-1 so you know who can address you if the situation is such that you don't want to talk to someone else.

And, I do ask the captains if their teams are ready in 90% of the (regular season) game in which I toss.

It is the same, because they're both wrong. In my experience, they're both rookie mistakes (although backpedalingi s normally purged sooner). Neither is done to anyone else. It doesn't affect me when someone else does either, so I'm nto sure what you mean by "to others."

I don't think I'm underestimating anything. There is no way 99% of state certified officials are doing this. None. When I see it, it's either by non-state certified offificials, or newly certified.

Your use of this thread as evidence that the problem is more pervasive is invalid, to be honest. Threads start here all the time over rare, but annoying, habits of partners. My number may be low, but it's not nearly as low as yours is high.

And you're right, there are far more important items to discuss. The glorious thing about the internet, though, is we get to discuss them all.

Twins Separated At Birth ...
 

Are you copying me.

Do The Math ...
 

I don't notify just the captains (see post #54), and certainly not just the "speaking" captains (because I don't know who they are), but in the spirit of "When in Rome ...", I have no problem with your mechanic. But I'm curious. Why not 100%? What about the other 10%?

Thanks much for the history of this question and the correct interpretation of what the true 'rule' is as far as movement on and off the circle prior to the ball being 'touched' by the jumpers.

One of the captains don't start or we stat with other than a jump ball (and I recognize the rule doesn't make an exception for that).

I really doubt it.