Ball comes in contact with both hands while dribbling
 

Is it always the case if a dribbler has both of his hand in contact with the ball that the dribble is considered to have ended, whether or not it is intentional or unintentional, maybe A1 is dribbling and using his armbar to protect the ball and somehow the off-ball hand comes in small contact with the ball (so during that bounce both hand comes in contact with the ball either simultaneously or separately), the player did not hold the ball but merely had his non dribbling hand/finger touched the ball, even for half a sec or so.

Ever Since I Was A Little Baby, I Always Be Dribblin' ...
 

Remember that the fact that the dribble has ended is not, in of itself, a violation. It becomes a violation if the ball handler dribbles again after said "double" contact.

yes, that's a violation.

What does the rule say? Are there any exceptions? And, a player shouldn't be "using his arm bar to protect the ball"

What ???
 

It is? Why? It only becomes a violation when the ball handler dribbles again. I don't see any reference to a "second" dribble in the original post.

I believe it was implied in the original post that the ball handler continued with his dribble, after having touched the ball with both hands. That's where the violation occurred.

Let The Séance Begin ...
 

And just exactly where does it say that?

Remember, when you imply, you make an imp out of you, and me (Apologies to Felix Unger).

Actually you are spot on on what i meant.

So in short within a dribble, a ball cannot touch both hands whether same time or different and no matter how light the touch was even if it's just the fingernails?

What if the ball handler was trying to protect the ball from a reach in attempt and the defender happens to bump his off ball hand into the ball, and he continues to dribble, would you call it a double dribble or would you see it as unintentional? Since you guys usually don't call for illegal contacts on incidental contacts.

And also would you see the dribble has ended if the dribbler the ball was accidentally caught between his hand & waist for a very brief moment, doesn't look like a hold but contact between hand/ball/waist.

As stated above (more than once) the touch with both hands ends the dribble. If the ball is subsequently pushed to the floor, not fumbled, this is the start of another dribble and a violation.
Intent has no bearing on a violation. Contact is illegal or incidental. It cannot be both. It can be either one, regardless of intent.

This is a judgment call. If, in the official's opinion, it "doesn't look like a hold" play on.

Quote: "As stated above (more than once) the touch with both hands ends the dribble. If the ball is subsequently pushed to the floor, not fumbled, this is the start of another dribble and a violation."
It becomes a violation only if the ball bounces up and is touched by the hand or hands of the ballhandler. If the ballhandler is not first to touch the ball, after pushing it to the floor, the action is the same as a bounce pass.

And has nothing to do with accidental vs intentional.

The ball handler shouldn't be doing this:

Art. 5. A player shall not use the forearm and/or hand to prevent an opponent
from attacking the ball during a dribble or when trying for goal. (from NCAA, but FED is similar)

If the ball comes to rest, yes -- and judging that is part of the job.

This is debatable. Some agree with you. But from where I sit, this is not true. Read the definition of a dribble. The ball is pushed to the floor once or several times. A subsequent touch is not necessary to meet this definition.

Agree. It is just by convention that officials often wait until it is touched again in order to resolve the ambiguity of whether the action is a dribble or a bounce pass.

I'm missing the ambiguity - if it is immediately a violation, to have stopped a dribble, and then push the ball to the floor - then every bounce pass, after a dribble has ended, would have to be a violation.
Example: A1 in frontcourt, dribbles to the top of the key, stops and stops his dribble. As A2 comes from the wing past A1, A1 pushes the ball to the floor as a pass to A2 - but the official blows his whistle . . . OOOPS - and the coach goes nuts, and all 10 players rightfully are confused (they've practiced that play 100's of times.)
To "start a dribble" is not the same thing as "a dribble" . . .

It's a judgment call. The majority of the time, a pass and the start of a dribble don't really look much alike.

Yes, you're missing it the point. When it IS a dribble, it is so the moment it leaves the hand. When it IS a pass, it is so the moment it leaves the hand. It is just that it is sometimes impossible to tell and we must wait to see what happens to tell what it is.

And I see it, it's ALWAYS impossible to tell, and we must wait to see what happens to tell what it is.
Example: A1 ends his dribble, obviously passes the ball towards A2 by pushing the ball to the floor (bounce pass) - ah, but A2 has not paid attention, and has gone the other direction, and A1 sees that the ball is in jeopardy of being stolen, so he hustles to it and is first to touch the ball. It's either a dbl dribble or travel violation - even tho' the "pushing the ball to the floor" was definitely intended to be a pass.
The difficulty comes from taking 4-15-3 as a complete statement, when it only deals with "starting" a dribble, and for a dribble to be executed, it must include the "end" of a dribble, as described in 4-15-4.
For my own understanding, I think of the fact that every year many people start to swim across the English channel, but only those who reach the other side have actually ended the swim, have actually done it.

So do you think that an official must wait until a player not only starts a new dribble, but ends it as well, to penalize the action as an illegal dribble violation?
That won't be accepted.

That is my understanding. I can't, presently, view a dbl dribble call as having much to do with judgement - it is or is not. Is it possible to describe a play that may/may not be called a dbl dribblle violation, based on judgement?
I'm reminded of the old idea that an attempt at goal - shot - had to be defined by whether it hit the goal or not, in order for the shooter to be able to rebound the miss - that goes way back. With the current definitions of when a shot starts, and when it ends, now, a genuine attempt at goal, in the judgement of the official, allows the shooter to rebound a miss, whether or not it hits the goal. (A distinct situation, but the logic has some relevance.)

Perhaps, this will be of interest in our discussion:
a)A1, having ended his dribble, holds the ball for a few seconds, and then pushes the ball to the floor, and (A) is or (B) is not first to touch it.
b) A1, having ended his dribble, holds the ball for a few seconds, and then fumbles the ball to the floor, and (A) is or (B) is not first to touch it.

Remember, in NFHS 9-5 the definition of an illegal dribble begins with the phrase "A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended..." It doesn't say anything about the second dribble ending as well. Granted there is judgment involved if A1 has a teammate near him/her who may be receiving a bounce pass but that's generally a Stevie Wonder-type play: we'll be able to tell 99% of the time whether it's a pass. The other 1% is what we get paid for.


A = obvious illegal dribble
B = you have to be there and see how the play is developing



Remember, you can fumble-dribble-fumble so both plays are legal. In play A, A1 would not be able to dribble again.

Dribble Or A Bounce Pass ???
 

And I'll wait up to seven minutes and fifty-nine seconds to see how this play develops before I decide to sound my whistle for a "double dribble" violation here. This is a very open ended situation. A lot can happen here: ball touches teammate, ball touches opponent, ball goes out of bounds, team control foul, defensive foul, player excessively swinging elbows, players fighting, coach screaming at officials, and being charged with a technical foul, player getting hurt, player displaces eye glasses that fall onto the court, ball slowly stops bouncing and remains motionless on the floor, a meteorite striking, and destroying, the gymnasium, an earthquake, a terrible flood, locusts, etc.

A1 has used his dribble. He fakes a pass, gives a head fake, then puts the ball on the floor and tries to drive baseline. After the ball hits the floor B1 knocks it out of bounds.

You're going to give it back to A?

I am.

You're penalizing the defense for playing good defense by ignoring a violation.

No, I'm penalizing the defense for kicking the ball out of bounds.

Crystal Basketball ???
 

Until I learn how to read a player's mind, yes I am.

Quote: "Remember, you can fumble-dribble-fumble so both plays are legal. In play A, A1 would not be able to dribble again."
I've always understood the "fumble - dribble - fumble" concept to be:
1st fumble - in attempting to catch/control the ball upon receiving it, as in receiving a pass -
2nd fumble - in attempting to end the dribble -
and not after having ended the dribble, successfully, and then fumbling the ball. My understanding of that fumble, and then being 1st to touch the ball, is that would be considered a 2nd, dbl dribble, violation. Indeed, the "Simplified and Illustrated Manual" seems to support that understanding, in the illustration of 4-15-4.
If, after successfully ending a dribble by controlling the ball, a player is allowed to fumble the ball to the floor and recover it, how many times is that allowable?

Ball was dead when it was knocked out of bounds.

For the one time in your career you see this play, call it however you want.

Theoretically, it's infinite. Let me ask, what violation would you call?

If, having ended a dribble by controlling the ball, the ball is fumbled to the floor, and the ball handler is first to touch it, I understand it to be a dbl dribble violation.

A dribble cannot be started by a fumble. This actually strengthens the above argument. The official must judge what the player is doing when the ball is released.

Dribble Pass Fumble Try

Case Book 4.15.4 A, supports the concept that the violation occurs as soon as the ball is pushed to the floor, with no reference to subsequent touching by the ballhandler.

Case Book 4.15.4 C, supports the concept that the violation occurs when (because) the ballhandler is first to touch the ball.

Case Book 4.15.4 D, (c) and (d), seem to equate catching the ball with fumbling the ball. And that seems to be consistent with Rule Book 9-5-3, and Case Book 9.5 (b) and (c).

yep


This case deals with throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard or an official, not pushing it to the floor.

A fumble can occur at any time, but read the definition of a fumble. It includes the phrase "loss of player control". A dribble cannot occur when a player is not in control.

For Those Without A Casebok Handy ...
 

4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid
guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball
from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an
attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the
dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.
(9-5)

4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball:
(a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an
official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her
own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles
again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the
opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is
first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is
legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore,
A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an
opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to
dribble; (b) the ball bounces away but A1 is able to get to it and continues to dribble;
(c) the ball hits A1’s foot and bounces away but A1 is able to overtake and
pick it up; or (d) A1 fumbles the ball in ending the dribble so that A1 must run to
recover it. RULING: Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1’s
hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor. In (b), even though the dribble
was interrupted it has not ended and A1 may continue the dribble. In (c), the
dribble ended when A1 caught the ball; and it ended in (d) when it was fumbled.
Even though the dribble has ended in (c) and (d), A1 may recover the ball but may
not dribble again. (9-5)

Not Convinced ...
 

4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid
guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball
from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an
attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the
dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.
(9-5)

You don't have to read a player's mind here because the case play editor does it for you. He's attempting "to continue the dibble". Without that reference, he could be starting a bounce pass. If a ball handler, who has already dribbled once, and then holds the ball, tells me, "Hey Mr. BillyMac, I'm going to start another dribble when I push the ball to the floor", then I will call him for an illegal dribble violation when the ball leaves his hand. However, I'm not going to hold my breath until that happens.

Let's change it up a little: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid
guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball
from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an
attempt to make a bounce pass to A2. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the
dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor he attempted a legal
bounce pass.(9-5-Note: Play On)

Or, even better: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid
guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball
from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an
attempt to do something that only God, and the player, know. RULING: When A1
palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to
the floor nobody, except God, and the player, knows what to call, so, unless God
is your partner, then play on. (9-5-Note: Crystal Ball)

Nope. Given the description A1 is dribbling again, which would be illegal. It happened in front of me this past week at a camp, I called the illegal dribble and we went along our merry way. To borrow from one of my clinicians, the illegal dribble is the elephant in this play. The defender making contact with the ball after it hits the floor is the ant.


Where does it say B1 kicked the ball out of bounds?

In my play it was a given also.

"puts the ball on the floor and tries to drive baseline"

Yet you and Adam refuse to call the violation because the dribble was not validated by a subsequent touch. This is not supported by rule.





This is wrong, too. You don't call it intentional when the coach yells for the player to foul. The play must be judged on its own merit.


If you judged it to be a pass attempt, yes, play on. 9-5 has no note.


Pretty thin, Billy. Do you ask God whether to award two shots when you are uncertain of a player's intent on a potential try?

I don't think that was the point. Kicked out of bounds, knocked out of bounds. Either way, the illegal dribble occurred first.

Still Not Convinced ...
 

Because the description includes the phrase "tries to drive baseline", which, at least to me, shows intent to start a new dribble. Now take out that phrase, how do you know that the player is not starting a bounce pass, maybe an ugly bounce pass, but, nevertheless, a bounce pass? Let the ball come back off the floor and touch A1's hand, then you'll be 100% sure that it's an illegal "double" dribble. Other than that, most officials don't call fouls, or violations, when they are not 100% sure that a foul, or a violation, occurred.

A veteran basketball official, Confucius, once told me, "When in doubt, don't be".

Officials who call only what they are 100% sure of don't call enough. JMO

Quack ...
 

If it looks like a try, swims like a try, and quacks like a try, then it probably is a try.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2877/9...f630c0c9_m.jpg

(During last week's heat wave here in Connecticut, I was forced to dunk my two pet hens, Betty, and Veronica, in a bucket of cool water twice a day to cool them off. They never really seemed to enjoy it.)

That's Entertainment ...
 

We agree here. My interpretation is not supported by rule. Sometimes we have to deviate slightly from the written rule and do what we do best, interpret. If this wasn't the case, there would be no need for a Basketball Forum. Everything would be as simple as black, and white, and there would be no need to have these great debates. Even if there was a Basketball Forum, it would be a pretty boring forum, and probably go out of business, and then where would Mark Padgett practice his stand up material?

The "Sureness" Spectrum ...
 

You're probably correct. I'm sure that most officials strive for anywhere between 51% and 100% "sureness". I try to be patient and get as close to 100% as I reasonably can, but there's no way that I'm calling something at 51%. If there's any chance that that attempt to start a dribble could possibly be the start of a bounce pass, then I'm waiting a fraction of a second to see what happens next.

They only knocked it OOB because they were forced to defend and illegal dribble. Not fair. Call the illegal dribble.

And what if the defender hits the ball OOB before it hits the floor?

I'd have to see it, but I think I got nothing. This would have to happen so quickly I'm thinking you really couldn't tell what the offensive player was trying to do.

You mean he might be trying to do something other than dribble? I've never seen this play happen where there weren't any other players around, offense and defense. An attempted bounce pass is almost always on the table. So is an attempt to throw it off the defender.

Exactly, he might be trying to do something other than dribble. That is a determination we must make. Nine times out of ten, on the start of a dribble, the ball will be touched a second time by the dribbler. But, on the rare occasion when it doesn't, the lack of a second touch should not prevent the violation from being whistled.

QUOTE: "This case deals with throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard or an official, not pushing it to the floor."

It has long been understood that the reason for considering "throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard or an official," to be the start of a dribble, is because, doing so, is the same as "pushing it to the floor."

QUOTE: "A fumble can occur at any time, but read the definition of a fumble. It includes the phrase "loss of player control". A dribble cannot occur when a player is not in control."

It is not my intention to re-define a fumble.

Most likely, we agree that a fumble can occur when a player has control of the ball. (4-21)

9-5-3 "A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless he/she has lost control because of . . . A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player." (Please, note the wording refering to the dribble having ended, rather the dribble having started).

This seems to indicate that a dribble has both a start - ie: pushing the ball to the floor - and an end - ie: being touched, again, by the ballhandler, (thus, that touch would require a call of a dbl dribble violation), or by another player, (thus, ending any possibility that a dbl dribble can occur.)

9-5-3 seems to support the premise that Case Book 4.15.4 A is an incomplete explanation, because it takes into consideration the "start of a dribble", but omits the "end of a dribble", and one is left to attempt to surmise the intent of the ballhandler, to make the call, rather than judging the action on its merit.
And, Case Book 4.15.4 C takes into consideration both the "start of a dribble," and the "end of a dribble," and allows the official to make a judgement based on the complete action, rather than a perceived intent.

As discussed in another Thread, we are consistently required to make calls based on the action, not on our perception of the intent of the players.

[QUOTE=Rob1968;901023]QUOTE: "This case deals with throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard or an official, not pushing it to the floor."

It has long been understood that the reason for considering "throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard or an official," to be the start of a dribble, is because, doing so, is the same as "pushing it to the floor."

Not only is it just "understood" - it is Basketball Rules Fundamental #19.

No, what this is saying is that if a player has already ended his dribble and proceeds to fumble the ball. After he retrieves it, he may not begin a new dribble unless the ball was touched by another player during the fumble.

The point is, a fumble is the loss of control. A dribble is, by definition, continuation of control. They are mutually exclusive.

I'm going to walk back just a hair here and state that if there is literally no other option when he pushes the ball to the floor, I'll agree that you could call the ID violation even if something happens before he touches it again.

I just haven't seen that situation, nor has it been described here.

you cover both opponents backboard & official, how about throwing it at a defender's leg, retrieve it and start a new dribble?

[QUOTE=billyu2;901029]

Legal.

But nothing has to happen at all. I saw the play once when A1 caught the ball, used his dribble, and pulled up near the endline out close to the 3 pt line. A few seconds passed, then something happened, I don't remember what, he faked a pass, defenders were just caught moving to their correct positions, or something. But A1 found himself with a clear path to the basket. Apparently he forgot for a split second that he had no dribble. He put the ball on the floor, took his first step........and then he remembered. He stopped and put both hands on his head. There was a whistle. No further action was necessary or allowable. It was the start of a dribble. A1 knew it. The official knew it. Everybody in the gym knew it.

Say a teammate is closest in this situation. Would you let the play go if A1 beckons him over? "Hey, A2, come get the ball. I can't touch it again."

I wouldn't.

[QUOTE=billyu2;901029]Thanks, Billy. I often subtly express my perception of subject material to avoid sounding sarcastic or overly argumentative, either of which can dampen a lively discussion rather quickly. To some, that subtlety is perceived as ignorance of the substantive content behind my premise, and they tell me to read rules or definitions. To others, such expression invites a comunal discussion rather than a one on one debate, and I enjoy the former much more.

Great Citation ...
 

A ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated the same
as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower’s
backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

Yes I would...and I would continue to get games from my supervisors.

Me too.

As would I.