Play opinion

[Ref_in_Alberta]

Our Men's spring league 1/4 finals started last night and my court finished early so I went over to watch some of the last few minutes of the game a couple very good friends of mine was working and they had a play near the end of the game that I'm interested in additional comments on...

2 person crew (FIBA rules). Trail is opposite the table. Penalty in effect.

Black team, on offense, up 8 with under 30 seconds to play. Advances the ball to the FC over center and is stopped in the high corner table side just over center. Black player pivots so that he ends up facing the table where White # 18 reaches around the black team player holding the ball and IMHO did not make illegal contact with the player. If there was any contact with the black team player (again IMHO) it was marginal at best.

Black player then pivots back and passes the ball to a teammate who then is fouled by W#18. Clock is now down to 18 seconds, W#12 goes off on the crew, assessed 2 Technical Fouls and ejected. 6 FT awarded + possession of the ball for Black at center.

Philosophical question in my mind now becomes this:

Do "we" call the marginal contact foul because we know that the team is down and trying to stop the clock?

OR

Do we stick to our guns and choose not to make the call on the marginal contact and wait for the illegal contact?

Looking forward to reading your thoughts.

R_I_A

[bob jenkins]

if black (in your example) is just "standing there" and taking the contact, then call it. If black is "playing keep away" then call the game.

And, if you get a chance, remind white to "make basketball plays" before this happens (and perhaps remind black that you will get the foul and they should not retaliate).

[Raymond]

What happens if you blow the whistle on "marginal" contact and all of a sudden white has stolen the ball? Then they are going off on the official for that also.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Maybe I am "old school" (not that Old School, LOL), but either contact is illegal or is not illegal (incidental contact).

MTD, Sr.

[JeffM]

It is a men's league and most players realize that it is a rec game and being healthy enough to work a 9-to-5 the next day is a priority.

As long as there was contact and the player was wanting to foul, I would want the official to call the foul. When the officials don't call the marginal fouls, men just foul harder a few seconds later and that increases the likelihood that someone would get hurt or retaliate.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JeffM

...As long as there was contact and the player was wanting to foul, I would want the official to call the foul. When the officials don't call the marginal fouls, men just foul harder a few seconds later and that increases the likelihood that someone would get hurt or retaliate.

That's the thing, he didn't say the player was trying to foul. Maybe the defender was playing the ball and thought he could get a steal.

Originally Posted by Ref_in_Alberta

W#12 goes off on the crew, assessed 2 Technical Fouls and ejected.

Can you explain this more? Why did he go off? What did he say? Why was he given more than 1 tech? Anything you know.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Can you explain this more? Why did he go off? What did he say? Why was he given more than 1 tech? Anything you know.

I wasn't there but by reading the OP he went off b/c he felt a foul should have been called 12 seconds earlier to save time.

And it's an Adult Rec League, 2 Tech can come very quickly in those venues.

[Ref_in_Alberta]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Can you explain this more? Why did he go off? What did he say? Why was he given more than 1 tech? Anything you know.

Many F-bombs laced in with disrespectful comments directed at the officials. Whack.
AND as he was leaving the floor he turned back and had more to say. Whack, Get out.

No question that the player's behavior earned himself the disqualification.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I wasn't there but by reading the OP he went off b/c he felt a foul should have been called 12 seconds earlier to save time.

And it's an Adult Rec League, 2 Tech can come very quickly in those venues.

This is accurate.

[Ref_in_Alberta]

The team in white was trying to foul to stop the clock. It was fairly obvious as the were all shouting to each other to use this tactic. With the body position of the black team player, my experience tells me that a steal wasn't going to happen.

I think on this play, the marginal contact should of been called as it was obvious that the foul was coming. IF the crew makes this call and puts the guy on the FT for the penalty I don't think W#12 explodes and earns the ejection.

In the end though the "right" team won the game and I didn't have to step between anybody and my friends.

{and I didn't have to write up the Technical Foul report as this league requires for all T's, Unsportsmanlike and Disqualifying fouls ( read FIBA equivalent to FF1 & FF2), that was on the crew}

Thanks everyone for your input.

[MathReferee]

Originally Posted by Ref_in_Alberta

The team in white was trying to foul to stop the clock. It was fairly obvious as the were all shouting to each other to use this tactic.

If I hear a coach or player say this, I am calling the first attempt that makes contact if for no other reason than preventing more severe contact.

[Nevadaref]

A few years ago (2006-07) the NFHS published instructions on late game fouling in its Points of Emphasis. Read this thread for a discussion of this topic.

Late Game Fouling

I posted the NFHS language in posts 4 and 34.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by MathReferee

If I hear a coach or player say this, I am calling the first attempt that makes contact if for no other reason than preventing more severe contact.

If the winning team is just holding the ball and is willing to take the free throws after strategic fouls, then let’s call the foul immediately, so the ballhandler doesn't get hit harder to draw a whistle.

[Nevadaref]

It is sad to see that according to the results of the poll connected to this thread several officials are not following the desire of the NFHS.


2006-07 POINTS OF EMPHASIS

• Contact – Contact that is not considered a foul early in the game should not be considered a foul late in the game simply because a team "wants" to foul. Conversely, contact that is deemed intentional late in the game should likewise be called intentional early in the game.

[Blindolbat]

Originally Posted by jeffm

it is a men's league and most players realize that it is a rec game and being healthy enough to work a 9-to-5 the next day is a priority.

As long as there was contact and the player was wanting to foul, i would want the official to call the foul. When the officials don't call the marginal fouls, men just foul harder a few seconds later and that increases the likelihood that someone would get hurt or retaliate.

+1000