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JetMetFan Thu May 09, 2013 04:41pm

Official NCAAM and NCAAW Proposed Rule Changes for 2013-14 Season
 
Note: All of these still have to be approved by the Playing Rules Oversight Panel, which next convenes via conference call June 18, before becoming effective for the 2013-14 season.

The NCAA Men’s Basketball Rules Committee recommended a significant focus on freedom of movement and a change to how block/charge calls will be made, and the NCAA Women’s Basketball Rules Committee recommended adding a 10-second backcourt rule during their respective annual meetings Monday-Thursday in Indianapolis.

The men’s committee focused much of its discussions on attempting to open the game.

“We talked a lot about the rules that are currently in place and ultimately believe a focused effort on calling the rules as written will have an immediate and significant impact,” said John Dunne, chair of the committee and head coach at Saint Peter’s.

For what is believed to be the first time, the committee met with the National Association of Basketball Coaches board of directors and Division I Men’s Basketball Committee to share concepts and opinions.

“It was a tremendous opportunity to get some feedback and ultimately, particularly from the coaches, the emphasis was to call the rules that are already in the book,” Dunne said.

In regard to the block/charge call in men’s basketball, the committee is proposing that a defensive player is not permitted to move into the path of an offensive player once he has started his upward motion with the ball to attempt a field goal or pass. If the defensive player is not in legal guarding position by this time, it is a blocking foul.

The current rule calls for a defender to be in legal guarding position before the offensive player lifts off the floor.

Committee members believe this will give officials more time to determine block/charge calls. Committee members also believe the tweak to the block/charge rule will:
•Allow for more offensive freedom;
•Provide clarity for officials in making this difficult call; and
•Enhance the balance between offense and defense.

In Division I games last season, the average amount of points scored in games was 67.5. This is the lowest scoring average since the 1981-82 season when teams averaged 67.6 points per game. The points-per-game average has also dipped in each of the last four seasons at the Division I level.

To curtail the impeding progress of a player, it will be stressed to officials that they must address these rules throughout the game.

The committee wants the following types of personal fouls be called consistently throughout the game:
•When a defensive player keeps a hand or forearm on an opponent;
•When a defensive player puts two hands on an opponent;
•When a defensive player continually jabs by extending his arm(s) and placing a hand or forearm on the opponent;
•When a player uses an arm bar to impede the progress of an opponent.



Women’s 10-second backcourt rule

In women’s basketball, committee members added the 10-second rule in the backcourt for the first time since the NCAA began administering women’s championships in 1981-82.

Previously, teams could take as much time off the 30-second shot clock as they wanted before crossing the mid-court line.

Officials will use the shot clock to determine if a 10-second violation has occurred.

Committee members believe adding the 10-second rule it will increase the tempo of the game and create more offensive scoring opportunities.

NCAA women’s basketball is the only level in the sport throughout the world that does not have a backcourt rule in place.

If this rule is adopted by the Playing Rules Oversight Panel, the committee is also recommended that the closely guarded rule in the backcourt be eliminated from the rules book.

The closely guarded rule in the frontcourt would read that a player holding the ball for five seconds with a defender not exceeding six feet will be a violation. Previously, the defender had to be within three feet of the offensive player with the ball to force a five-second violation.

“Given feedback from stakeholders through the years, this is the right time to approve the rule,” said Barbara Burke, women’s basketball rules committee chair and director of athletics at Eastern Illinois. “Overall, we discussed pace of play, creating scoring opportunities and flow of the game. Adding the 10-second backcourt rule adds another element of strategy, and this rule fits into the concepts of growing the game.”

Monitor reviews

In men’s and women’s basketball, the committee recommended that in the last two minutes of regulation and overtime officials can go to the monitor to review a shot clock violation and to determine who caused the ball to go out of bounds on a deflection involving two or more players.

Additionally, it was recommended that when officials have a question to whether a shot was 2-point or a 3-point field goal, they will be allowed to signal to the scorer’s table that the play will be reviewed during the next media timeout. The Big Ten Conference successfully experimented with this rule during the season in 2012-13.

In the last 4 minutes of the game and the entire overtime, officials will go to monitor immediately to look for indisputable evidence as to how many points should be awarded for a field goal.

Both committees approved the use of the monitor to determine the fouler when there is uncertainty after a call has been made. Currently, officials have only been permitted to determine the free throw shooter using the monitor.

Elbow rules

In men’s and women’s basketball, if a foul was called for elbow contact above the shoulders, the monitor may be used to determine if a flagrant foul has been committed.

In this scenario, the official may determine if the contact was a flagrant 2, flagrant 1, common foul or no call. When the officials use the monitor to review a situation that is not called on the floor, the only options are flagrant 2, flagrant 1 or no foul.

“The intent of the elbow rule has always been to protect the student-athletes and eliminate the rip move in men’s basketball,” Dunne said. “There was a strong feeling in the men’s community that some other types of elbow contact didn’t deserve a flagrant 1, so we are allowing the limited use of the monitor to appropriately manage this play.”

In a flagrant 1 situation, the player who was struck is awarded two free throws and his team gets possession of the ball.

In a flagrant 2 situation, free throws and possession are awarded and the player who threw the elbow is ejected from the game.


Women’s media timeouts

When a team-called timeout occurs within 30 seconds prior to the scheduled media timeout (first dead ball under the 16-, 12-, 8-, and 4-minute marks), it will become that media timeout with the exception of the first called team timeout in the second half.

For example, when Team A calls a timeout at 16:02 in the first half, there will not be another timeout at the first dead ball under the 16-minute mark.

Committee members want to eliminate consecutive timeout stoppages in play.

Lower-defensive box added to the restricted-area rule

In women’s basketball, the committee revised the restricted area rule in the lower defensive box (the area on the court that starts at the second free-throw lane space to the three-foot area outside the lane to the baseline).

When a player with the ball starts outside the lower defensive box area, a secondary defender must be outside the restricted area to draw a charge.

When a player with the ball starts her move from inside the lower defensive box area, a secondary defender can draw a charge the restricted area is not in effect.

Camron Rust Thu May 09, 2013 04:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 893423)
[B]

In regard to the block/charge call in men’s basketball, the committee is proposing that a defensive player is not permitted to move into the path of an offensive player once he has started his upward motion with the ball to attempt a field goal or pass. If the defensive player is not in legal guarding position by this time, it is a blocking foul.

The current rule calls for a defender to be in legal guarding position before the offensive player lifts off the floor.

Committee members believe this will give officials more time to determine block/charge calls. Committee members also believe the tweak to the block/charge rule will:
•Allow for more offensive freedom;
•Provide clarity for officials in making this difficult call; and
•Enhance the balance between offense and defense.

I don't mind calling it that way if the rules specify that but A lot of guys called it like anyway. So they might as well change the rule to match what some are calling so that it has a chance of being consistent.

I disagree with the point that that it will give officials more time to determine block/charge or that it will provide any more clarity in making the call. It won't. It simply moves the point where a decision goes to a block vs. a charge. The official still has to make a decision and it will still come down to splitting hairs, just different hairs.

It will allow for more freedom of movement...the defender's job just got harder to perform legally. So, it will lead to more successful attacks at the basket.

I also wouldn't say it "Enhances the balance" between offense and defense. It just changes it. People that like good defense will not think it is an enhancement.

rockyroad Thu May 09, 2013 05:05pm

Question on the 10 second count being added in NCAAW...do the NCAAM use the shot clock to determine the 10 second count as this article says the NCAAW will? That doesn't seem to make sense to me. Maybe I am wrong on this, but on a throw-in in the back court, the clock and 30 sec clock start on a defensive tip, but the count doesn't start until A has control, correct? So why would they use the shot clock to determine the 10 sec count?

Nevadaref Thu May 09, 2013 05:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 893427)
Question on the 10 second count being added in NCAAW...do the NCAAM use the shot clock to determine the 10 second count as this article says the NCAAW will? That doesn't seem to make sense to me. Maybe I am wrong on this, but on a throw-in in the back court, the clock and 30 sec clock start on a defensive tip, but the count doesn't start until A has control, correct? So why would they use the shot clock to determine the 10 sec count?

No, the official's count is the governing factor in NCAAM, not what the shot clock says. Of course, one can use the shot clock when the first touch is a clean catch establishing control inbounds.

Nevadaref Thu May 09, 2013 05:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 893425)
I don't mind calling it that way if the rules specify that but A lot of guys called it like anyway. So they might as well change the rule to match what some are calling so that it has a chance of being consistent.

I disagree with the point that that it will give officials more time to determine block/charge or that it will provide any more clarity in making the call. It won't. It simply moves the point where a decision goes to a block vs. a charge. The official still has to make a decision and it will still come down to splitting hairs, just different hairs.

It will allow for more freedom of movement...the defender's job just got harder to perform legally. So, it will lead to more successful attacks at the basket.

I also wouldn't say it "Enhances the balance" between offense and defense. It just changes it. People that like good defense will not think it is an enhancement.

Ditto to what Camron said. Please refer to my comments in the other thread about how this is being done with the hope to increase scoring and revenue.

Obviously none of this NCAA material is being written or said by an official because the statements and conclusions don't make sense from an officiating standpoint. It's all about the $.

bob jenkins Sun May 12, 2013 09:27am

Quote:

Lower-defensive box added to the restricted-area rule

In women’s basketball, the committee revised the restricted area rule in the lower defensive box (the area on the court that starts at the second free-throw lane space to the three-foot area outside the lane to the baseline).

When a player with the ball starts outside the lower defensive box area, a secondary defender must be outside the restricted area to draw a charge.

When a player with the ball starts her move from inside the lower defensive box area, a secondary defender can draw a charge the restricted area is not in effect.
I can see this being difficult to officiate.

ODJ Sun May 12, 2013 08:36pm

When a team-called timeout occurs within 30 seconds prior to the scheduled media timeout (first dead ball under the 16-, 12-, 8-, and 4-minute marks), it will become that media timeout with the exception of the first called team timeout in the second half.

Oh, please oh please!!

Brad Sun May 12, 2013 11:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 893425)
I don't mind calling it that way if the rules specify that but A lot of guys called it like anyway. So they might as well change the rule to match what some are calling so that it has a chance of being consistent.

Amen! That is almost verbatim what I have been saying about it —*not as much as that's how some officials were calling it, but that's how coaches / players / fans think it should be called that way! So, you either have to reeducate all of the coaches, players, and fans ... or change the rule. At least something is changing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 893425)
The official still has to make a decision and it will still come down to splitting hairs, just different hairs.

So true. I do think it makes the play more obvious though. It should be easier to tell if a defensive player had position or not. However, that doesn't mean that there won't be controversy!!

JetMetFan Mon May 13, 2013 09:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 893427)
Question on the 10 second count being added in NCAAW...do the NCAAM use the shot clock to determine the 10 second count as this article says the NCAAW will? That doesn't seem to make sense to me. Maybe I am wrong on this, but on a throw-in in the back court, the clock and 30 sec clock start on a defensive tip, but the count doesn't start until A has control, correct? So why would they use the shot clock to determine the 10 sec count?

From what I'm being told by my friendly neighborhood NCAA interpreter, the women's rule - if approved - will be similar to the NBA: shot clock determines the violation *AND* no new 10-second count if the team in control takes a timeout or the defense commits a violation.

For me, this rule will become a real headache if it's adopted for my GV games in NYS. Since we usually have students at the table I'm generally thrilled when I can find a shot-clock operator who resets the thing when he/she is supposed to more than 75% of the time.

Raymond Mon May 13, 2013 10:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 893876)
From what I'm being told by my friendly neighborhood NCAA interpreter, the women's rule - if approved - will be similar to the NBA: shot clock determines the violation *AND* no new 10-second count if the team in control takes a timeout or the defense commits a violation.
...

So Player Control will not be required before starting your 10-second backcourt count if play begins with a throw-in?

JetMetFan Mon May 13, 2013 07:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 893888)
So Player Control will not be required before starting your 10-second backcourt count if play begins with a throw-in?

According to my friendly neighborhood interpreter, that's correct.

NCAAW = 10-second count begins when the ball is TOUCHED by Team A in its backcourt.

NCAAM = 10-second count begins when the ball is CONTROLLED by an inbounds player from Team A in their backcourt.

Given that TC exists on a throw-in, the way the women are handling it makes sense.

JRutledge Mon May 13, 2013 07:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 894011)
According to my friendly neighborhood interpreter, that's correct.

NCAAW = 10-second count begins when the ball is TOUCHED by Team A in its backcourt.

NCAAM = 10-second count begins when the ball is CONTROLLED by an inbounds player from Team A in their backcourt.

Given that TC exists on a throw-in, the way the women are handling it makes sense.

I disagree with that last statment totally. But then again old-timers use the shot clock as the guage which is wrong.

Peace

rockyroad Mon May 13, 2013 08:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 894011)
According to my friendly neighborhood interpreter, that's correct.

NCAAW = 10-second count begins when the ball is TOUCHED by Team A in its backcourt.

NCAAM = 10-second count begins when the ball is CONTROLLED by an inbounds player from Team A in their backcourt.

Given that TC exists on a throw-in, the way the women are handling it makes sense.

Wow.

And if the defense touches the ball first? Shot clock doesn't start??? Or it does and the offense's 10 second Count started when the other team tipped the ball???:eek:

Nevadaref Mon May 13, 2013 11:47pm

What's the big deal? The rule can be written however they wish.
All that they need do is word it such that following a team initially being awarded a throw-in the team with the ball must advance it to the frontcourt prior to 10 seconds coming off the shot clock.
For a ball which gets knocked into the backcourt during a possession, they could put in a rule requiring returning it to the frontcourt within ten seconds or they could just permit the team to use the rest of the shot clock.
It doesn't matter how they do it as long as everyone is clear on what the rule is.

JetMetFan Mon May 13, 2013 11:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 894019)
And if the defense touches the ball first? Shot clock doesn't start??? Or it does and the offense's 10 second Count started when the other team tipped the ball???:eek:

I'll get clarification on that.

rockyroad Tue May 14, 2013 11:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 894039)
What's the big deal? The rule can be written however they wish.
All that they need do is word it such that following a team initially being awarded a throw-in the team with the ball must advance it to the frontcourt prior to 10 seconds coming off the shot clock.
For a ball which gets knocked into the backcourt during a possession, they could put in a rule requiring returning it to the frontcourt within ten seconds or they could just permit the team to use the rest of the shot clock.
It doesn't matter how they do it as long as everyone is clear on what the rule is.

Wow.

Genius. I never thought that "they" could write it however they wished! If only I was as smart as you!:cool:

Anyway...jetmetfan, please let me know what you find out. And thanks for checking in the first place. It just seems that we would be penalizing a team (losing some of their 10) for the defense tipping the ball away. We really shouldn't start the 10 until the team has control inbounds - just like on a rebound, or a ball tipped into backcourt by the defense, etc.

APG Tue May 14, 2013 11:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 894112)
Wow.

Genius. I never thought that "they" could write it however they wished! If only I was as smart as you!:cool:

Anyway...jetmetfan, please let me know what you find out. And thanks for checking in the first place. It just seems that we would be penalizing a team (losing some of their 10) for the defense tipping the ball away. We really shouldn't start the 10 until the team has control inbounds - just like on a rebound, or a ball tipped into backcourt by the defense, etc.

Or rewarding the defense for making the tip...the offense is in control of where the ball will go from the moment they start the throw-in, so I don't see it as penalizing them.

rockyroad Tue May 14, 2013 11:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by APG (Post 894114)
Or rewarding the defense for making the tip...the offense is in control of where the ball will go from the moment they start the throw-in, so I don't see it as penalizing them.

OK...so A has the ball in their frontcourt, and A3 attempts a pass to A4 which is tipped by B4 into A's backcourt. Using your logic, we would start the 10 second count as soon as the tipped ball gets into the backcourt because the defense made a good play, and not wait until A recovers the ball to start the 10 second count???

Raymond Tue May 14, 2013 12:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 894122)
OK...so A has the ball in their frontcourt, and A3 attempts a pass to A4 which is tipped by B4 into A's backcourt. Using your logic, we would start the 10 second count as soon as the tipped ball gets into the backcourt because the defense made a good play, and not wait until A recovers the ball to start the 10 second count???

That's the rule already. PC/TC have been established so as soon the ball gains BC status you begin your count.

Raymond Tue May 14, 2013 12:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 894039)
What's the big deal? The rule can be written however they wish.
...

Who says it was a big deal? I guess questions are only valid if they come from the land of wild horse round-ups? :rolleyes:

Nevadaref Tue May 14, 2013 12:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 894122)
OK...so A has the ball in their frontcourt, and A3 attempts a pass to A4 which is tipped by B4 into A's backcourt. Using your logic, we would start the 10 second count as soon as the tipped ball gets into the backcourt because the defense made a good play, and not wait until A recovers the ball to start the 10 second count???

Wow, seems that you weren't kidding with the smart comment.

I guess this is Karma.

2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 8: A1 is dribbling in his/her frontcourt when B1 deflects the ball into A's backcourt. The ball is bouncing toward the end line in A's backcourt while A1 and B1 give chase. B1 and A1 each contact the ball, but neither gains control. Finally, after numerous attempts by each player, A1 gains possession deep in A's backcourt. When does the 10-second count begin anew for Team A? RULING: The count starts as soon as the ball goes into the backcourt since team control has not ended. (4-12-3; 9-8)

rockyroad Tue May 14, 2013 12:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 894128)
That's the rule already. PC/TC have been established so as soon the ball gains BC status you begin your count.

Doh.:o

Knew that. Hate it when I don't stop to think before I type.

As Roseanne Rosanna-danna would say....Never mind.

rockyroad Tue May 14, 2013 12:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 894142)
Wow, seems that you weren't kidding with the smart comment.

I guess this is Karma.

Uhmmmm, yeah. If karma really does exist, you are in way more trouble than me!:p

JetMetFan Tue May 14, 2013 12:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 894143)
As Roseanne Rosanna-danna would say....Never mind.

You did it again. It's Emily Litella :D

[Gilda Radner] Miss Emily Litella - YouTube

JetMetFan Tue May 14, 2013 01:06pm

Clarification alert!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 894112)
Anyway...jetmetfan, please let me know what you find out. And thanks for checking in the first place. It just seems that we would be penalizing a team (losing some of their 10) for the defense tipping the ball away. We really shouldn't start the 10 until the team has control inbounds - just like on a rebound, or a ball tipped into backcourt by the defense, etc.

According to my FNI, the shot clock would run and the 10-second count would be in effect. Reason: TC exists during a throw-in.

My FNI also advises we shouldn't go crazy trying to dissect the proposals until June 18 when PROP makes its decision on them. But given who we are... :)

Again, this is the NCAAW interpretation ONLY.

rockyroad Tue May 14, 2013 01:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 894150)
According to my FNI, the shot clock would run and the 10-second count would be in effect. Reason: TC exists during a throw-in.

My FNI also advises we shouldn't go crazy trying to dissect the proposals until June 18 when PROP makes its decision on them. But given who we are... :)

Thanks!

Nevadaref Tue May 14, 2013 02:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 894150)
According to my FNI, the shot clock would run and the 10-second count would be in effect. Reason: TC exists during a throw-in.

My FNI also advises we shouldn't go crazy trying to dissect the proposals until June 18 when PROP makes its decision on them. But given who we are... :)

Again, this is the NCAAW interpretation ONLY.

Again, I say if that's the way that they wish to do it, that's no big deal. Yes, it differs from the current way that NFHS and NCAAM handle this.

I don't understand why rocky felt compelled to take a shot at me for expressing my feeling on such a ruling.

rockyroad Tue May 14, 2013 02:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 894166)
Again, I say if that's the way that they wish to do it, that's no big deal. Yes, it differs from the current way that NFHS and NCAAM handle this.

I don't understand why rocky felt compelled to take a shot at me for expressing my feeling on such a ruling.

Seriously?

Ok...I was asking questions to get some clarification on the timing issue, and you come in with the "What's the big deal" comment - and I wasn't the only one who thought that was over the top. So you got a shot back at you. Was that juvenile of me? Yeah, I will own that.

Now back to your regular scheduled events...

SCalScoreKeeper Tue May 14, 2013 05:47pm

I've been advocating the 10 sec count in the women's game for years.Let's see if it passes the ultimate test.

refnuts Thu May 16, 2013 09:37am

10 sec count
 
The rule change is not a big deal. There will be almost no
10 second violations called. Teams will adjust.

The pain will be dealing with bad shot clock operators and
Having to make corrections when they screw up

JetMetFan Thu May 16, 2013 02:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by refnuts (Post 894445)
The rule change is not a big deal. There will be almost no
10 second violations called. Teams will adjust.

The pain will be dealing with bad shot clock operators and
Having to make corrections when they screw up

That's the concern I'm hearing most often right now. It's that much larger in my case because GV in NYS uses modfied NCAAW rules so we'll be asking shot-clock operators - in NYC, mainly kids who are already "clock challenged" - to do one more thing.

Texas Aggie Tue May 21, 2013 08:45pm

It would have been easier had they just eliminated the player control foul, which is what most want to do anyway.

jeschmit Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:01pm

From what I found out from the classroom session with Debbie Williamson this past weekend:

Administering official will bring in subs. They will have the whistle, and hold their hand in the air until there are 5 vs 5 on the floor. (We did this at camp this past weekend, and, let me tell ya, I felt like a doofus holding my hand in the air for myself to bring in subs.)

Rule 4 will go from about 70 articles to about 35-40. They are moving things around to make them easier to find. Now you have to go to 3-4 different rules to read about the free throw, whereas in the new rules books all you'll have to do is go to Rule 8 only.

Rule 11 will be Monitor articles.

There will be two separate books for the men's and women's rules. Case books will be separate as well.

There will be a new 10 second count in the backcourt if the ball becomes dead and the offense still has the ball. So you will then go off of what the shot clock says when the ball is put back in play. (Clock awareness is going to be crucial here.)

Under 30 seconds (when the shot clock is off), there will be a visible 10 second backcourt count by the Trail official.

I think that was the main stuff besides what the OP has in their post.

Raymond Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeschmit (Post 899646)
...
There will be a new 10 second count in the backcourt if the ball becomes dead and the offense still has the ball. So you will then go off of what the shot clock says when the ball is put back in play. (Clock awareness is going to be crucial here.)

Under 30 seconds (when the shot clock is off), there will be a visible 10 second backcourt count by the Trail official.

...

Just to want to make sure I'm clear on this. Any time the ball achieves backcourt status the time on the shot clock at that moment will determine your new 10 second count? And there will be no visible 10-second count unless the shot clock is off?

bob jenkins Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 899651)
Just to want to make sure I'm clear on this. Any time the ball achieves backcourt status the time on the shot clock at that moment will determine your new 10 second count? And there will be no visible 10-second count unless the shot clock is off?

that's what I heard, too. Note that this can give a team more (up to .9) than 10 seconds to get the ball across if it becomes dead after the clock has started.

And, the specific mechanics on bringing in the subs are still being developed -- and I agree it was strange.

Camron Rust Tue Jul 09, 2013 03:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 899654)
that's what I heard, too. Note that this can give a team more (up to .9) than 10 seconds to get the ball across if it becomes dead after the clock has started.

Only if the shot clock doesn't show tenths (of course, many don't).

Also, that really isn't any different than officials counting. I guarantee there is a lot more than 0.9 seconds of inaccuracy in most counts....usually on the slow side.

jdmara Tue Jul 09, 2013 04:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeschmit (Post 899646)
Administering official will bring in subs. They will have the whistle, and hold their hand in the air until there are 5 vs 5 on the floor. (We did this at camp this past weekend, and, let me tell ya, I felt like a doofus holding my hand in the air for myself to bring in subs.)

This is definitely a work-in-progress. During my NCAA-W camp on June 28-29, we were instructed to have the administering official whistle and wave subs in, but still have the T or C, hold their hand up. Clarification on what they exactly want will be demonstrated in the preseason videos.

Although Debbie would have a better idea of what she was looking for than an other member of the rules committee

-Josh

jeschmit Tue Jul 09, 2013 04:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 899651)
Just to want to make sure I'm clear on this. Any time the ball achieves backcourt status the time on the shot clock at that moment will determine your new 10 second count? And there will be no visible 10-second count unless the shot clock is off?

This is correct. The trail will have to know what the shot clock is on in order to have a proper 10 second count every time the ball achieves backcourt status.

Debbie did say that the Center can help with this, but they want the call coming from the trail unless the Center is ABSOLUTELY SURE that more than 10 seconds had elapsed while the ball is in the backcourt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 899673)
This is definitely a work-in-progress. During my NCAA-W camp on June 28-29, we were instructed to have the administering official whistle and wave subs in, but still have the T or C, hold their hand up. Clarification on what they exactly want will be demonstrated in the preseason videos.

Although Debbie would have a better idea of what she was looking for than an other member of the rules committee

-Josh

Debbie watched games at Marie's camp for a day... She provided information with how they wanted it to be done. The Center or Trail (whoever brings the subs in first), will raise their hand to initially bring them in, but then pass off the hand in the air to the administering official. Much like we do now when we pass the hand in the air off to the Center official when we are going long.

jdmara Tue Jul 09, 2013 05:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeschmit (Post 899674)
Debbie watched games at Marie's camp for a day... She provided information with how they wanted it to be done. The Center or Trail (whoever brings the subs in first), will raise their hand to initially bring them in, but then pass off the hand in the air to the administering official. Much like we do now when we pass the hand in the air off to the Center official when we are going long.

Good information. I still don't understand why the administering official is stop signing themselves but good information nonetheless

-Josh

Camron Rust Tue Jul 09, 2013 06:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 899676)
Good information. I still don't understand why the administering official is stop signing themselves but good information nonetheless

-Josh

It tells their partners that they've got it and they are waiting for the substitution to complete. If they put it down when there are 6 players on the court, their partners can react and prevent them form putting the ball in play.

JetMetFan Wed Jul 10, 2013 06:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 899670)
Only if the shot clock doesn't show tenths (of course, many don't).

That function gets turned off during NCAA games played in NBA or D-League arenas. There's nothing official about it in the rule book but it appears both NCAAM and NCAAW aren't into it right now.

JetMetFan Wed Jul 10, 2013 04:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeschmit (Post 899646)
There will be a new 10 second count in the backcourt if the ball becomes dead and the offense still has the ball. So you will then go off of what the shot clock says when the ball is put back in play. (Clock awareness is going to be crucial here.)

On other thing regarding resets: if we have to stop the game while the ball is in the backcourt due to a timer error (i.e., the game clock starts but the shot clock doesn't) the offense gets a new 10-second count. So again, clock awareness will be big.

IREFU2 Fri Jul 12, 2013 07:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 894011)
According to my friendly neighborhood interpreter, that's correct.

NCAAW = 10-second count begins when the ball is TOUCHED by Team A in its backcourt.

NCAAM = 10-second count begins when the ball is CONTROLLED by an inbounds player from Team A in their backcourt.

Given that TC exists on a throw-in, the way the women are handling it makes sense.

This is correct for NCAAW - it was a big topic in a camp I was at last weekend.

IREFU2 Fri Jul 12, 2013 07:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 899676)
Good information. I still don't understand why the administering official is stop signing themselves but good information nonetheless

-Josh

Basically what I been doing is if I am the table, trail or center, I hold the subs until I get the administering officials attention. This helped a lot in my games in camp.

brainbrian Fri Jul 12, 2013 09:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 894011)
NCAAW = 10-second count begins when the ball is TOUCHED by Team A in its backcourt.

NCAAM = 10-second count begins when the ball is CONTROLLED by an inbounds player from Team A in their backcourt.

Does that mean now there will be a difference in when the shot clock should start after a made basket between the men's and women's game?

JetMetFan Fri Jul 12, 2013 05:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by brainbrian (Post 899819)
Does that mean now there will be a difference in when the shot clock should start after a made basket between the men's and women's game?

Nope. That's already in NCAA 2-11-5 (Duties of shot-clock operator) which hasn't been changed.

Quote:

Start the timing device when a player inbounds legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in or when a team initially gains possession from a jump ball, an unsuccessful try for goal or when possession of a loose ball is gained after a jump ball or unsuccessful try for goal.
So...in NCAAM the ball could touch a member of Team B on a throw-in in the backcourt, both teams could scramble for it in the backcourt for 10 seconds, Team A could then recover the ball in the backcourt and Team A would still have 10 seconds to advance the ball to the frontcourt.

In NCAAW, that same play would be a violation once 10 seconds ran off the shot clock.

Raymond Fri Jul 12, 2013 09:21pm

Supposedly the Men will be using the shot clock also.

jeschmit Wed Jul 17, 2013 04:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 899673)
This is definitely a work-in-progress. During my NCAA-W camp on June 28-29, we were instructed to have the administering official whistle and wave subs in, but still have the T or C, hold their hand up. Clarification on what they exactly want will be demonstrated in the preseason videos.

Although Debbie would have a better idea of what she was looking for than an other member of the rules committee

-Josh

Consider this work-in-progress to be no longer progressing. I've just received emails from two different assignors today that states that we will not be using the new mechanic with bringing in subs for the remainder of the summer and the 2013-14 season.

SWMOzebra Wed Jul 17, 2013 04:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeschmit (Post 900268)
Consider this work-in-progress to be no longer progressing. I've just received emails from two different assignors today that states that we will not be using the new mechanic with bringing in subs for the remainder of the summer and the 2013-14 season.

Received similar email this afternoon. Common sense triumphs! :)

JetMetFan Wed Jul 17, 2013 07:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 899885)
Supposedly the Men will be using the shot clock also.

Had this confirmed at a camp over the weekend.

Raymond Mon Aug 12, 2013 09:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 893423)
...

Lower-defensive box added to the restricted-area rule

In women’s basketball, the committee revised the restricted area rule in the lower defensive box (the area on the court that starts at the second free-throw lane space to the three-foot area outside the lane to the baseline).

When a player with the ball starts outside the lower defensive box area, a secondary defender must be outside the restricted area to draw a charge.

When a player with the ball starts her move from inside the lower defensive box area, a secondary defender can draw a charge the restricted area is not in effect.

I didn't even notice this passage first time around. I just saw a memorandum posted on Arbiter for one of my conferences for the Women's officials dated July 18th:

"This memorandum serves to communicate a rule change approved by the Women’s Basketball Rules Committee and Playing Rules Oversight Panel (PROP) regarding the lower defensive box and required court markings.
The change, which becomes effective with the 2013-14 season, requires institutions to add two 12” x 2” lines (“tick marks”) on the baseline which are located 3 feet from the outside edge of the lane line. The tick marks should be measured from the outside edge of the lane line to the inside edge of the tick mark on both sides of the lane and on both ends of the court. The court diagram below may also be viewed at the following link:
"

I guess I should expect to see this marking on all collegiate courts this season. So NCAA-W are going with a rule similar to the NBA?

ocreferee Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:48am

Not so fast my friend...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 902365)
I didn't even notice this passage first time around. I just saw a memorandum posted on Arbiter for one of my conferences for the Women's officials dated July 18th:

"This memorandum serves to communicate a rule change approved by the Women’s Basketball Rules Committee and Playing Rules Oversight Panel (PROP) regarding the lower defensive box and required court markings.
The change, which becomes effective with the 2013-14 season, requires institutions to add two 12” x 2” lines (“tick marks”) on the baseline which are located 3 feet from the outside edge of the lane line. The tick marks should be measured from the outside edge of the lane line to the inside edge of the tick mark on both sides of the lane and on both ends of the court. The court diagram below may also be viewed at the following link:
"

I guess I should expect to see this marking on all collegiate courts this season. So NCAA-W are going with a rule similar to the NBA?

You will find the markings on all D1 courts but the NCAA has since provided a grace period for D2 and D3 schools until next season. If there are not marks we get to "guess" where the LDB is. :rolleyes:

jeschmit Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ocreferee (Post 902370)
You will find the markings on all D1 courts but the NCAA has since provided a grace period for D2 and D3 schools until next season. If there are not marks we get to "guess" where the LDB is. :rolleyes:

When in doubt, they are out! (of the LDB that is)

Raymond Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ocreferee (Post 902370)
You will find the markings on all D1 courts but the NCAA has since provided a grace period for D2 and D3 schools until next season. If there are not marks we get to "guess" where the LDB is. :rolleyes:

Ok, just like the first year of the RA.

I'll be on the look-out to make sure you're handling it right if we have any DHs. :D

ocreferee Mon Aug 12, 2013 01:15pm

BNR...I look forward to coming down your way to CNU for a game or two. Maybe we will get that DH.

Raymond Mon Aug 12, 2013 01:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ocreferee (Post 902387)
BNR...I look forward to coming down your way to CNU for a game or two. Maybe we will get that DH.

That would be great....CNU is exactly 9 miles from my house. I turn right out of my subdivision and stop when I see the gym. Can't ask for a better assignment, especially on a weeknight.


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