Coach on court
 

Is it acceptable for a coach to approach an official on the court to ask a question during a time out? I wanted to ask a question, the officials were on the opposite side of the court during a time out so I came on the court to ask a quick question. Didn't get that far before one of the officials told me to go back to my bench and said he could have T'd me up for coming on the court. I was cool, no yelling, just told them I wanted to ask a question. Seemed unreasonable to me.

It is acceptable. It might be wise to beckon the official over, so you can have a private conversation away from fans, but it is not a technical to approach an official to ask a polite question. I am assuming that you are the head coach? Perhaps that official was frustrated and didn't want to communicate, which is wrong. What happened later in the game?

Un, no it isn't. It might be tolerable occasionally for the coach to step away from his bench in a timeout if done politely but the first thing that should happen is for the official to direct the coach back to his bench area. Until the coach is there, I'm not entertaining any questions.

I agree. However, the official in question threatened a technical just for approaching him across the court. I never said the official had to talk to him over there, and even suggested it would be wise to invite the official over. Remember, this coach (according to his account) was polite and I'm sure would be willing to walk back to the bench area to talk.

Cam, would you threaten a coach with a technical just for approaching you during a timeout?

You are missing the point, which is that the coach could be assessed a technical foul for being out of the time-out area.
It is okay to politely ask a question of the official, but it must be done from the proper location and the timing is of utmost importance.
It is quite possible that the official didn't wish to discuss the situation at that time because it would have looked as if the coach was correcting the official in front of everyone in the gym.
Better to wait until play resumes and the official has occasion to come near the bench. When there is a suitable break in the action, the question could be asked and answered.

As I said, I don't disagree about time and place. However, any official threatening a technical foul right away is not exhibiting good communication. The official could have handled the situation better than that.

Hey BillyMac, I've Got A Question ...
 

(IAABO Two Person Mechanics) Unless the officials are discussing a specific game situation, the farthest any official should be away from the table, and thus, from the benches, during a timeout, should be about thirty feet (sixty second time out). From the outer perimeter of the time out "huddle" the coach should be able to get the officials attention at that distance. And, by rule, the coach can be out as far as the imaginary line extended from the nearest free-throw lane line during a time out. Should be plenty of opportunities to get an official's attention during a time out, as long as the coach is polite.

Without hearing the tone, it came across to me as more educational than threatening.

And whether I entertain the question in this case has a lot to do with how the coach has behaved prior to this point.

As BillyMac mentioned...

So the coach did have the right to be on the court at the moment. Given where we're supposed to be during a time out there's no reason to warn/threaten the coach with anything assuming he/she wasn't being belligerent.

Timeouts are for times to discuss things with the team, not to discuss things with the officials. Just like coaches do not want us around them at that time, officials do not want coaches in their face. And it is not about communiciation being good or not, it is about a time and a place. It is usually not the time, nor the place.

Peace

This is VERY key, and unless I missed it, yet to be answered.

Perhaps the official's reaction/response was because this was a mouthy assistant ... or any assistant.

I don't get the impression most assistants realize how low they rate in the NFHS rues book.

The Coach has the right to be in the time-out area...the time-out area is the area where he talks to his players. That doesn't mean that if the rest of the team is over by the bench, he gets to come all the way to the free throw lane to "talk" to me. I'm not on his team and am not part of his time-out.

Now, if he is asking a legitimate question, I will quite often go over there and talk with him. Or just wait until the first horn sounds when I have to go over there anyway.

But that rule does not give the Coach permission to come that far out there to talk to the officials.

I am the head coach. My style isn't to yell or get all freaked out, in fact, I probably only asked for clarification once or twice the entire game. Didn't come on the court for those clarifications.

I just wanted clarification on a call that happened right before the opposing team's time out. It helps me instruct my players as sometimes they don't understand what they did wrong. It's usually quick and painless.

I've been coaching 10 years and this is the first time an official threatened to T me up for approaching them with a question. As I walked on the court, I said, "Can I ask a quick question?"

Not a huge deal, just got me wondering what you guys had to say about it.

If I am on that game, I am stopping you from coming out towards me/us. I will come over to you briefly...the problem with letting you come out there and have a mini-conference with me/us is simple - what does it look like to the other coach? Would you want me to be doing that with your opponent?

All great, but you are not owed anything. And when you deal with officials some will not take your "questioning" the same way. And as a coach you should realize that on many levels. Just like we work with certain officials and we adjust to our partners all the time. And all I know for sure is timeout time is not that time you will get the most talkative officials. Maybe if you ask the question after the first horn or warning, but not right after the timeout. If anything we as officials need to talk to each other sometimes and your wanting answers is a distraction.

Peace

Happened to me and my partner. During halftime, coach is walking towards us but we thought he was walking over to talk to a parent/fan/AD that we might have been near. He stops right in front of us and starts into us about something. Not very animated or overly angry. As soon as we realize his purpose we send him right back and tell him this was inappropriate behavior. I don't tolerate that during timeouts, halftimes, etc.

Now this might get back to a theme from a different thread about the minority getting the majority treatment but . . .

If coaches want to communicate with officials and understanding communications have to happen in a timely and appropriate manner, there are no really significant opportunities during the playing of the game to have a protracted conversation about rules confusion, situations, and just general inquiry. During the momentary pauses in play coaches basically get a comment or question. I get a response in and if they aren't happy they get a parting comment that ends up registered for later, gets ignored or if negative gets them a stop sign/T. Thats really it.

Timeouts and halftime or post game seem like the only times to me where any sort of protracted conversation/ explanation can go on. I'm not saying coaches get to run over everyone, or chase us around the building bitching and demanding answers but if you are going to have a positive conversation and interaction that genuinely improves the situation/understanding level/ or quality of the game. When else is going to take place?

Now that we have clarification from the coach himself I'll stick with my answer: I'm not threatening him with a T especially if he isn't being belligerent or hasn't been a PiTA during the game. All that does is create an adversarial situation where there hasn't been one up to that point. I'll politely suggest he go back and then I'll walk over and handle things. I'll also probably have an AC from the other team come over so they don't feel as though anyone is gaining an advantage.

All this changes if he's been a problem child during the game.

I'm not threatening him with a T. Thought would never come in my mind. But I'm also immediately stopping him by walking towards him and asking him to return to his bench area. That gives him a short window with which to ask me his question.

Exactly. And there shouldn't be.

You proceed from the erroneous assumption that it's the referee's job to hold a rules clinic for the coach and teach him the game. There should never be ANY sort of "protracted conversation / explanation" between referee and coach.

True, but if I will rarely refuse to answer a question if approached politely. There is either more to the OP than we have here, or (just as likely) at least one of the officials was relatively new and not ready to really talk to coaches.

It's also possible they knew they kicked the call and really didn't want to own up to it.

Then again....

There are a lot of possibilities here, I guess, so I'll stop rambling now.

+1 on this all the way.

Looks like I'm in the minority here, but if a coach wants to use his timeout to talk to me, as long as it's in a respectful way, I'm happy to oblige. He's got assistant coaches that can take care of his team during that time. There's no need for us to create an adverserial situation where there doesn't need to be one.

I'm not even really going to tell him to get back to his timeout area before I'll talk to him. I'll probably meet him somewhere in the middle once I see him approaching me, and then walk him back to the bench area as we talk.

Attitude of the coach plays a big part in this, but again, if it's respectful, why not give him a little courtesy?

I have supervisors who will jump deep in my a$$ if I let a coach come way out on to the court to talk to us during a time-out. They want coaches staying in the bench area.

Awesome... and then the rest of us get to deal with, "But the last ref we had let us do it."

I am wondering who it was (other than the officials in the OP's game) who said they would not talk with the Coach. I will certainly talk with him/her - just NOT in the middle of the freaking floor.

So all this garbage about not talking to the coach is exactly that - garbage.

And if you talk to the coach in the middle of the court, the other coach is going to be upset when you do not talk to them in the same manner. I just do not see the benefit.

Peace

Disagree. If your situation, level of interest, reasons for being involved with the game grant you the freedom and option to simply be the guy who shows up and calls the game I don't take umbrage with that. I just don't think that is the case for all officials.

In large urban areas there may be such a pool of officials, and so many basketball teams/schools/clubs/ players that each just plays their part and things role on basically working well. In rural areas or communities developing or trying to grow their basketball/sport programming and quality; officials, coaches, players, parents, clubs/schools are all stakeholders. For it grow and improve stakeholders need to work together for positive growth. You can only move if everyone is rowing in at least a similar direction.

If I've got coaches, clubs, etc that want to do the right things by their kids and by the sport there is almost never a bad time to have a conversation that gets everyone on the same page moving forward. If a protracted conversation helps the game or next game, if it lets a coach get clarification that can change their understanding or teaching of the game, if a young coach/player can benefit from a conversation and these don't interfere with the flow/management of the game why not?

Different strokes for different folks. Round these here parts unless you a university coach you are a volunteer and as an official I'm not being paid enough for it to be just about the paycheck.

I can appreciate your perspective. I will say that here, in a mid-sized metro area, there are quite a few summer coaches who I'm starting to see regularly enough to be recognized. For the most part, if anyone asks a question, it'll get answered. Quickly, though. It won't take more than just a few seconds. Anything longer than that and it's turning into either a rules clinic or a debate; I'm not doing either of those in a game.

I have been known to give a prolonged explanation post-game, but only rarely and only when approached with the appropriate demeanor.

You are flat out wrong on that point.
For many actions the prescribed recourse is a technical foul. So why shouldn't an official let the coach know that is the penalty which he is facing if he chooses to engage in such? Seems perfectly logical to me. Seems like correct communication, too.

You must be an ex-coach (or perhaps even a current one). Coaches never want the penalty to be applied to them.

And since you didn't penalize him by properly assessing a technical foul, he will do the same thing again to you or another crew. You missed a golden opportunity to take corrective action for the good of all officials in your area.

I think if he hadn't of listened right away to our direction to go back to his bench then I would've used that "golden opportunity." However, he listened right away and realized perhaps he shouldn't be there.

Sigh...

OK, I suppose we did not say, specifically, what kind of games we were discussing. If you are calling youth ball, I can definitely see your point, and even agree to some extent, especially early in the season. And in a youth game, I'm going to be much less inclined to issue a T for a coach coming out in a time out to try to discuss something - and assuming he's been a good boy so far I'm likely to explain about the time out box, and where he can and cannot be, as well as trying to address his question if possible.

I assumed we were discussing HS, JH, or other actual organized games when I made my statement above.

Wow.

So by not letting the coach come out onto the court, I/we have suddenly become officials who are just in it for a paycheck??? Nice job of completely crapping all over someone because they don't see it your way.

And I will ask this question again: While you are having your 2 minute long conversation with Coach A out in the middle of the key at his end of the court, just what wonderful thought do you think are going through the mind of Coach B down at the other end of the court? :eek:

I've still yet to have a coach-initiated conversation that changed the way I officiated or the way the coach coached.

Yeah, but that's because you're just in it for the paycheck. :p

I can understand that but as was mentioned in one of the earlier posts, if we're where we're supposed to be as the time out starts - or reasonably close to it - the coach won't have to come out onto the court that far in the first place. The furthest away one of us will be from his/her bench is the opposite side of the center circle on the division line.

When coaches want to extend conversations - something more than asking about a rule or finding out where the ball is being put into play - I'll call over an AC from the other team so they can hear the conversation. 99% of the time that stops the dialogue because if they want to speak any longer than ten seconds it's usually to try to gain an advantage or get on my nerves.

Couple of clarifications. We're an 8th grade team playing up at the freshman level. Winter stuff is over, so this is a spring club league. Nothing too serious here. I also live in a big city, so seeing the same officials from game to game is rare.

We've played close to 200+ games in the past two years and this is the first time an official warned me about coming to talk with them on the court. Granted, I usually don't have to walk very far, this was an exception.

I was looking for the NFHS rule that dealt with a coach coming on the court and I'm assuming it's the "Coaching Box" rule. However, I wasn't aware of the officials positioning requirements during a time-out. It wouldn't have been an issue if one of them had been closer to my bench.

Time Out, Not An Intermission ...
 

IAABO Mechanics Two Person Game: Time Out (not an intermission): One official should be table side, on the jump ball circle, on the division line (thirty second time out); or opposite the table, on the jump ball circle, on the division line (sixty second time out). There will be exceptions, especially late in the game, if the officials want to get together for a pow-wow to discuss something about the game.

I'll let someone who's not from Connecticut, The Land That Time Forgot, to give you the three person game positions during a time out.

Three-person...

Full = one official on each of the low boxes on the FT lane line farthest from the benches. Official who will administer the next play has the ball at the spot where the ball with be put in play.

30 = One official at the top of each FT circle. Official who administers the next play does the same as a full.

If the next play takes place on the table side of the court, administering official holds the ball on the court in line with that spot and in line with the other officials. If it's a FT, the administering official stands on the FT line.

This also means if you're ever unsure of where the ball will be put in play when you're in a time out, find the official holding the ball. If the crew is doing what it's supposed to be doing, that official will be at or across from the spot.

Do you guys - BillyMac and JetMetFan - really do that during spring/summer league games?

Most of the time doing those games, I am working with a newer official so we use timeouts to discuss stuff ourselves. I can't remember the last time I worked a non-season/non-camp game and we went to the designated time-out positions.

Business As Usual ...
 

I seldom work off season games, maybe just a few AAU games, but I do work Catholic middle school games on weekends during the season. And in this little corner of Connecticut, we go where we're supposed to go during time outs, and intermissions. We will get together for a few more pow-wows than during a high school varsity game, but the discussion will be about "business", the game, the coaches, interesting plays in the game, tough calls, etc. We will not be discussing anything else, i.e., Christmas gifts, the weather, politics, gas prices, etc.

Spring ball, you can pretty much scrap the timeout positioning requirements. Normally, one will be at the throw in spot, and the other at the division line. But if they're not, they're not. They're likely discussing a play; possibly discussing the same play you wanted clarification on.

I'm not saying I would have handled it the way they did; I have no idea, really. I am saying I can understand it, and they have a little more rules backing than you do. Not a major deal, I know, but just FYI.

Like rocky said, spring and summer is a time to work with newer officials, and it's not unusual for me to get with my partner to offer some encouragement.

+1

What's the positioning for 2-man for the last minute of halftime and in between quarters?

Thanks just doing as the Romans do here in Rome.

Seriously though if just doing the job of calling the game is the total extent of your interest and sense of responsibility that fine. I just do not like the idea that is put out that there is never situation in which coaches and officials should be having long conversations. We coach games with coaches of all age groups here, run officiating clinics for youth officials/minor officials who are also the kids we are officiating in older games, 50% or more of our officials in our association are/were also coaches at some level or work in a leadership capacity in minor basketball associations. If we aren't taking every opportunity we can to have conversations to make the game better or better understood who is?

Without getting into what ifs forever. If Coach A comes out to talk, or I'm standing by the timeout area talking, or a magic carpet becomes invovled and Coach B wants to talk too? In the million to one shot that both want to be reasonable and are strictly curious about rules then I would work it out. In any other situation I'm not sure what Coach B is thinking matters to me at that point. Not sure what your point here is??

Maybe your sample size is too small. Have more conversations or start some and see if you get better results. ;)

Don't feed the troll!

My sample size is very broad. In season, I work for 6 different supervisors plus a 7th guy who assigns games for a small Christian college. And I go camping every off-season. And I work AAU ball every off-season. Plus my local facility is a stop on the Nike boys' EYBL circuit. So I see coaches from all over the country from various levels.

And none of those 7 guys who give me paychecks want their officials holding extended conversations with one coach during a game. And none of them want coaches out at the center circle or the free throw circles.

I've had plenty of pleasant conversations with coaches away from the court.

No way. Don't pull that "someone crapped on me, so I get to crap on you" garbage. Unless you are a 7th grade girl, that's just not gonna work.

And again, I never said not to talk with Coaches. But there is a time and place for it. Out in the middle of the court during a timeout is not the time or the place.

And the other Coach - if you do decide to have that long conversation out in the middle of the court - is going to figure that you are in that coaches pocket and he is going to get screwed. Or worse, is going to want to have his own conversation at the next timeout, and the next, and the next...

When I work in the summer now it's usually at officiating camps so I'd have to say yes. Even in a spring or summer league - I'm doing my first one of those in eons this weekend - I usually try to just to avoid getting into bad habits. Worst case scenario is I'll stand in the center circle.

Intermissions ...
 

IAABO Mechanics (Two Person) Intermission: Referee at division line, opposite the table, with the ball. Umpire on the free throw lane line "block", opposite the table, on the side of the court where the possession arrow is pointing.

Give That Man A Cigar ...
 

Bingo.

What's the procedure for the 15 second warning horn?

My 7th grade daughter doesn't pull this.

My 1st grade son does, but he doesn't get away with it.

Intermission ...
 

IAABO Two Person Intermission: Each official takes a few steps toward the closest huddle and announces, "First horn", while giving the coach the finger, wait, I mean, while holding up an index finger. We don't hang around the huddle after the horn, rather, we quickly move to our throwin positions, ready for when the ball gets put into play.

It's more about control and decorum than anything. By keeping a coach in the coaching box, it allows the official to exert control over situations that may get out of hand. It also forces the coach to show proper respect and authority to the official.

Also, I don't think it's appropriate for a coach to walk across the court for anything other than to check on an injured player. There's simply no reason for him to be there, especially to ask questions or to complain. I'm not sure if it's still the same in the NCAA, but I remember a time where any coach that walked onto the court to complain to an official got an automatic tech. That isn't a bad rule.

Why Can't I Stand Here ???
 

Control by not following the rules? The coach, by rule, doesn't have to stay in his coaching box during timeouts, he has to stay in his team's timeout bench area. Game management is important, but stay within the rules, then you'll have no problem answering the phone call from your assigner early the next morning.

Anticipate the play, not the call.

If a coach hasn't caused any problems there's no reason to put on the "control and decorum" badge as soon as we see him/her start walking onto the court during a time out, especially if we're on the other side of the court. If we see him/her walking out, it won't hurt to approach them and find out what's up. As we're walking them back towards their bench saying something like, "Coach, do me a favor. If you need either of us just try to catch our eye" should solve the problem.

Should we be ready to deal with an issue? Sure but deal with it when it comes up, not before it happens.

I disagree. It is a timeout area for timeouts. If he is not using the area to coach his team but to bark at an official, it isn't a timeout area anymore. If he's doing enough to earn a T, it doesn't really matter anyway. He can still be T'd even if he were in the coaching box.

Point, Counterpoint ...
 

And I also disagree. Where in the rules does it say what a coach is allowed to do (we have plenty of rules that tell us what he's not allowed to do) during a timeout? Who says that he has to "coach his team"? How about a citation? And exactly what does "coach his team" mean? What if he just wants to give his players a rest? What if he just wants to give his players time to get a drink? What if he just wants to give one of his players a chance to tie his shoes? What if he just wants to get a substitute into the game? What if he has a correctable error situation and needs to approach the table? What if he just wants to walk out to the nearer free throw lane line extended and gaze into the crowd, or at the scoreboard, to calm himself down because he's pissed at his players, or pissed at the officials, and wants to cool off before he does something stupid. All of these are legal, by rule. Threaten a technical foul for any one of these and you'll have a "lot of splainin to do" if you follow through on your threat (I assume that your assigner is Ricky Ricardo).

If it's not illegal, then it's legal, and he can do anything legal that he wants to do in his team's timeout bench area.

I do agree with part of your post. If he's "bark(ing) at an official", and he's doing enough to earn a technical foul, then it doesn't really matter where he is. He can still be charged with the technical foul even if he were in the coaching box. And it's still his time out area, even if you "bang" him. He has the time out area until you throw him out of the gymnasium, and even then, his assistant still has the timeout area. I don't see how the team can lose this area? How about a citation?

This situation reminds me of some uninformed officials (not you Camron Rust) who think that they can "request" a coach to "sit down" without the prerequisite technical foul. Sure, we could do this thirty years ago, with the old seatbelt rule, but not anymore. To make him sit, you have to "bang" him first, and then he sits.