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-   -   Womens championship game (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/94742-womens-championship-game.html)

VaTerp Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 890598)
I've seen shades of it in this discussion, but not enough to ruin a very good discussion on a very difficult issue.
Other than a few posts responding to Nevada that have been deleted b/c of quoting him, I have just been reading and not contributing to this thread. It's of great interest to me but commenting on it reminds me too much of my day job.

I will say that I am pleasantly surprised with the quality and depth of the discussion, and the seeming willingness to listen to differing thoughts and perspectives.

I agree with much of what has been said. What started off on post#3 could have become very ugly very quickly, and apparently did. But thumbs up to those who kept it on track and constructive.

JRutledge Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:48am
Adam,

I just said it sounded like whining, I am not saying the discussion should not be had.

All I have mostly read in this specific discussion was comments that suggest there are considerations to race and gender. And I do not feel that is a bad thing when the participants want to be comfortable with who is on their games and in many cases certain people do not take the game seriously or look down on the situation because it is not where they want to be. I know I do not like girls and women's basketball and I know many like me. They should choose the people that want to be there most of all, but should consider things that will make the game go smoothly.

Peace

Adam Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 890602)
Adam,

I just said it sounded like whining, I am not saying the discussion should not be had.

All I have mostly read in this specific discussion was comments that suggest there are considerations to race and gender. And I do not feel that is a bad thing when the participants want to be comfortable with who is on their games and in many cases certain people do not take the game seriously or look down on the situation because it is not where they want to be. I know I do not like girls and women's basketball and I know many like me. They should choose the people that want to be there most of all, but should consider things that will make the game go smoothly.

Peace
I agree. I just find it unfortunate that players have been led to feel that if they get refs of the opposite race, it can negatively affect their game if they're playing a team predominantly of the opposite race. I would much rather disabuse them of these "out to get us" notions as opposed to caving to their desires to be represented.

I recognize, however, that's easier said than done, and coming from a guy represented by a majority of the population (maybe, depending on how hispanics are counted), I understand it's a bit weak. The odds of having an all-black officiating crew are significantly slimmer than an all-white crew. Both have been known to happen in my association, but I think we have a pretty fair mix here. Not that I've counted, but I'm going off of my observations of attendance (and leadership) at our association meetings.

VaTerp Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 890606)
I just find it unfortunate that players have been led to feel that if they get refs of the opposite race, it can negatively affect their game if they're playing a team predominantly of the opposite race. I would much rather disabuse them of these "out to get us" notions as opposed to caving to their desires to be represented.
From my experience it's much more players and teams' own reaction from cultural experience and history than it is anyone "leading them to feel" anything.

And what you call "caving to their desires to be represented" would be what others feel is simply being inclusive, smart, and considerate in terms of assigning or managing the official, coaches, players, overall game dynamic that goes into it.

deecee Fri Apr 12, 2013 01:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp (Post 890599)
Other than a few posts responding to Nevada that have been deleted b/c of quoting him, I have just been reading and not contributing to this thread.
He might take things too far often but I agree with his sentiment. Many groups cry so hard for equality that they then start to over compensate in their benefit when they are finally given what they have fought/complained/whined/cried/argued about.

I am also sure that the officials that worked the game were deserving but you cannot cry for equality and then completely go the route that serves your group best when it fits your need(s). You just can't have it both ways. Yes, it frustrates me and no I don't have to like it.

VaTerp Fri Apr 12, 2013 01:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 890637)
He might take things too far often but I agree with his sentiment. Many groups cry so hard for equality that they then start to over compensate in their benefit when they are finally given what they have fought/complained/whined/cried/argued about.

I am also sure that the officials that worked the game were deserving but you cannot cry for equality and then completely go the route that serves your group best when it fits your need(s). You just can't have it both ways. Yes, it frustrates me and no I don't have to like it.
So your, and Nevada's, issue is that black and women officials "cried" to get more opportunities and assignments, particularly for games involving majority black and female participants respectively, and where they were typically underrepresented AND now you feel (or are crying) they are overrepresented at the expense of qualified non black female officials? And you're somewhat angry about it?

I can understand that perspective but IMHO it's short sighted and misplaced.

deecee Fri Apr 12, 2013 01:29pm
No more misplaced that then games with predominantly white athletes get mostly to all white officials. What you are defending is affirmative action. Which I think is a bunch of baloney.

For the record I am not white, nor am I black or Hispanic. Its like saying that being a Black, female, and gay is hitting the genetic jackpot in officiating.

If the deciding factor over who gets selected is race/ethnicity/gender then that's just hog wash. I would like all qualified officials to be entered into a lottery and 3 names selected at random, and 1 for the alternative. However large that pool be is up to the deciding bodies. But it's not more short sighted and/or misplaced then going overboard with ones new found freedom/equality at the expense of exactly what they were fighting in the first place.

VaTerp Fri Apr 12, 2013 01:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 890643)
No more misplaced that then games with predominantly white athletes get mostly to all white officials. What you are defending is affirmative action. Which I think is a bunch of baloney.

For the record I am not white, nor am I black or Hispanic. Its like saying that being a Black, female, and gay is hitting the genetic jackpot in officiating.

If the deciding factor over who gets selected is race/ethnicity/gender then that's just hog wash. I would like all qualified officials to be entered into a lottery and 3 names selected at random, and 1 for the alternative. However large that pool be is up to the deciding bodies. But it's not more short sighted and/or misplaced then going overboard with ones new found freedom/equality at the expense of exactly what they were fighting in the first place.
I do defend affirmative action and would welcome an intelligent debate on the policy, not that this is the right forum for that. And since you thinks it's "baloney" and "hogwash" I'll just agree to disagree with you on that here since I doubt it would be a constructive conversation. If being being black, female, and/or gay is hitting the "genetic jackpot" in officiating then I'm sure there are other areas in life that go the other direction on that. I can think of a few.

That said, doing the bolded would run into the same problems. The grievances would just move to deciding who makes up the pool of "all qualified" officials.

Officiating and evaluating it is very subjective by nature. There will always be multiple considerations to be made in assigning games. And there will always be people who are bothered by, and disagree with those considerations. Whether they are related to race, gender, sexual preference or other things such as personal relationships, connections, or even who and what people use to judge/determine who is qualified. And the validity of their judgement itself.

And that is where I think the words of Rich are wise. In controlling what you can control and not whining about others.

Of course, there are times when "whining" is justified (depending on your perspective). Fortunately, in those instances it usually works itself out. Unfortunately it can take a long time to do so.

JRutledge Fri Apr 12, 2013 01:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 890643)
No more misplaced that then games with predominantly white athletes get mostly to all white officials. What you are defending is affirmative action. Which I think is a bunch of baloney.
The majority of officials I see are white in the first place. You do not have to make a case for more white officials wnen most of the officials offiating almost everything are already white. And this could be the case in just about any level and any sport. And in basketball the sport is dominated at least on the Men's side with African-Americans. We need Affirmative-Action to prove that we can excell in basketball officiating, while dominating in other aspects of the sport? Give me a break!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 890643)
For the record I am not white, nor am I black or Hispanic. Its like saying that being a Black, female, and gay is hitting the genetic jackpot in officiating.

If the deciding factor over who gets selected is race/ethnicity/gender then that's just hog wash. I would like all qualified officials to be entered into a lottery and 3 names selected at random, and 1 for the alternative. However large that pool be is up to the deciding bodies. But it's not more short sighted and/or misplaced then going overboard with ones new found freedom/equality at the expense of exactly what they were fighting in the first place.
No one said it was the deciding factor. But let us be frank for a second. Many but not all for sure whites often do not even want to go into certain communities for their sterotypes and so-called assumptions about certain communities. I hear it all the time when I have been assigned place and my white counterparts have more negative things to say than I would. As if I feel comfortable to go to certain communities, but I never complain. At least at the HS level I have no problem with people that can handle the sitaution as an official and not worry about other things while going to officiate. Unless we are employees, no one can really make us go anywhere. And if I was assigning I want officials that can handle the issues in that game that might take place. That is why I have openly said that the 2A state finals the offiicals appeared to be totally overmatched as they did not seem to address the extra-ciricular activity that took place in that game. And I am sorry, three rural officials was not the answer. Heck they all could have been from Chicago and white and that would have been better than what was working that game because I did not see officials aware of the underlining situations that could arise. And yes, players and coaches talk to their "own" differently than they do other races or even genders.

Peace

deecee Fri Apr 12, 2013 01:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 890646)
The majority of officials I see are white in the first place. You do not have to make a case for more white officials wnen most of the officials offiating almost everything are already white. And this could be the case in just about any level and any sport. And in basketball the sport is dominated at least on the Men's side with African-Americans. We need Affirmative-Action to prove that we can excell in basketball officiating, while dominating in other aspects of the sport? Give me a break!!!



No one said it was the deciding factor. But let us be frank for a second. Many but not all for sure whites often do not even want to go into certain communities for their sterotypes and so-called assumptions about certain communities. I hear it all the time when I have been assigned place and my white counterparts have more negative things to say than I would. As if I feel comfortable to go to certain communities, but I never complain. At least at the HS level I have no problem with people that can handle the sitaution as an official and not worry about other things while going to officiate. Unless we are employees, no one can really make us go anywhere. And if I was assigning I want officials that can handle the issues in that game that might take place. That is why I have openly said that the 2A state finals the offiicals appeared to be totally overmatched as they did not seem to address the extra-ciricular activity that took place in that game. And I am sorry, three rural officials was not the answer. Heck they all could have been from Chicago and white and that would have been better than what was working that game because I did not see officials aware of the underlining situations that could arise. And yes, players and coaches talk to their "own" differently than they do other races or even genders.

Peace
I don't make any assumptions on what is reality versus what is ideal. I was just defending the position that equality is what it is, and groups that fight for equality when they get it tend to overcompensate lose credibility in my opinion.

Camron Rust Fri Apr 12, 2013 01:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp (Post 890639)
So your, and Nevada's, issue is that black and women officials "cried" to get more opportunities and assignments, particularly for games involving majority black and female participants respectively, and where they were typically underrepresented AND now you feel (or are crying) they are overrepresented at the expense of qualified non black female officials? And you're somewhat angry about it?

I can understand that perspective but IMHO it's short sighted and misplaced.
deecee's point is right on the money.

Any group that has complains about discrimination and lack of equality and fairness and is able to achieve and equal opportunity that then expects to receive preference and even is given preference is guilty of the same misdeeds that were put upon them in the past. If it is wrong in one direction, it can only be wrong when the roles are reversed. Equality is just that, it isn't revenge.

JRutledge Fri Apr 12, 2013 02:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 890651)
I don't make any assumptions on what is reality versus what is ideal. I was just defending the position that equality is what it is, and groups that fight for equality when they get it tend to overcompensate lose credibility in my opinion.
No one said a thing about overcompensating. Just saying I find no problem with 3 women official working a Final Four Championship or all African-Americans working a similar contest, when it is common place to see 3 white males work games most of the time. But when racial and gender minorities have that dynamic then it is outrageous?

Sorry, you lose me there.

Peace

Raymond Fri Apr 12, 2013 02:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 890651)
I don't make any assumptions on what is reality versus what is ideal. I was just defending the position that equality is what it is, and groups that fight for equality when they get it tend to overcompensate lose credibility in my opinion.
"Get equality then overcompensate" :confused: I don't even know what that means.

I just find it funny when it's the minority (gay/black/female/etc), they are crying for equality. But if somehow the scales get overtilted in their favor, then the group that used to be in the majority (or in power) are now just merely pointing out injustices and just want everything done on merit. :rolleyes:

deecee Fri Apr 12, 2013 02:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 890655)
"Get equality then overcompensate" :confused: I don't even know what that means.

I just find it funny when it's the minority (gay/black/female/etc), they are crying for equality. But if somehow the scales get overtilted in their favor, then the group that used to be in the majority (or in power) are now just merely pointing out injustices and just want everything done on merit. :rolleyes:
Guess my point is being missed by many. The idea of equality is a great one, the execution of it is a myth.

Raymond Fri Apr 12, 2013 02:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 890653)
No one said a thing about overcompensating. Just saying I find no problem with 3 women official working a Final Four Championship or all African-Americans working a similar contest, when it is common place to see 3 white males work games most of the time. But when racial and gender minorities have that dynamic then it is outrageous?

Sorry, you lose me there.

Peace
Whenever it's 3 white males no one bats an eye. But if it's 3 women or 3 minorities or 3 gays then something must be askew in the system and things need to be fixed now. :rolleyes:


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