Hope you're knocking 'em dead at camp this weekend. Speaking of knocking 'em dead I'll leave you with 2 words:

Jesse Orosco.

BTW JR, I heard Orosco used to be your babysitter. True?

:D

Sigh! How quickly they can turn on one of their own.

Can't turn your back on anyone anymore.

PS- Please note that I have refrained from mentioning the game last night. Some Yankee fans DO have class.

On second thought, t'hell with it! BOSOX SUCK,CHUCK!
http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung...smiley-030.gif

Armando Benitez. :rolleyes:

BTW, just watched the last 3 inning of the NY-Red Sox 1978 playoff game on the cable. One of these days Yaz is gonna do something better than popping out to Nettles... :p

Yaz? Is he still alive? :p

yeah,about the same time that Buckner catches a routine ground ball in a World Series game!

I saw Yaz jack one at Tiger Stadium.
... Triple-Crown year.
... In the 60's, but I don't remember much about that decade. I think that's when the real meaning of decadence came into being.
mick

Today's contest is:

Guess which one was Mick in the 60's!
http://members.aol.com/VWware/clear1a.jpg

Hint: He's NOT wearing a bikini(thank God)!

I understand the Sox pulled out the win in the ninth tonight. (Not that I saw any of it. :( )

And camp is good. LOTS of good information. Lots of good video to analyze (from the NBA, but it's still good). Lots of good officials to observe. And more than a few good ones to work with, too.

Started off with some jitters this morning. Had a shaky first quarter b/c I work college, one partner works only CBA and the other official was kind of weak. Our switches and coverage were wacky for a while until we got together at a time-out and asked each other "Just what the %$@#&! are we doing?!?!" From there the game went much better.

Then had a GREAT game in the afternoon. My stock rose significantly when one partner was a no-show. My other partner and I worked 2-man for the first quarter and impressed the heck out of our NBA observer.

Unfortunately, I gave back all those good feelings tonight. I worked with two officials with whom I just didn't mesh; the weak official from Game 1, and another guy who was ok. For whatever reason, we simply didn't work well together, and none of us stepped up to make the others better. It was awful to be a part of. I don't even want to see the tape in the morning. In our defense, our second half was better. I concentrated on slowing way down with my whistle and my mechanics and I think that helped me a little. The evaluator says I'm still way too deep as Lead. (I would say that I was a little too deep. . .) But I was trying to utilize the new pro mechanic of stepping deep when you close down to the lane line extended. I just was stepping too deep. So I'll clean that up tomorrow.

The classroom stuff is great, tho. I made big points in the first session by being able to explain what "SBQ" means :) (I even raised my hand, I was so excited to know an answer!!)

Anyway, that's Day 1.

Maybe somebody could start a new thread with the heading "When the crew just isn't clicking" and share some ideas on how to break out of that funk. I gotta tell you it was frustrating to know it was happening and not be able to change it.

Big deal. The real test is to know what "SBD" means.
http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/...imi_scared.gif

Great line in the NY Post this morning:

Byung-Hyun Kim is Korean for Armando Benitez!

How true!

Huh?
 

Have more fun, Chuck.

What does "SBQ" mean?

How deep did the evaluator want you? How Deep do you want to be?

Thanks.
mick

Benitez fan club...
 

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref Armando Benitez. :rolleyes:

Mussina wasn't happy to have Benitez blowing games when they both played together in Baltimore. I'm guessing that the Moose will be motivated to pitch a lot more complete games if he thinks Benitez will come in to relieve him...

Re: Huh?
 

Got some unexpected time off this morning. For some reason, I'm not scheduled to work till 2:30. So I'm wolfing down an early lunch and checking the board. Then I'll head out and observe the game before mine. Anyway. . .

SBQ stands for "speed, balance, quickness" and it's an NBA guideline for officials to judge handchecking. If the handcheck takes away the ballhandler's speed, puts him off balance, or takes away his first step, then it needs a whistle. It's basically a slightly more detailed way of judging advantage/disadvantage. I've mentioned it a few times previously in a couple of old threads. It's an NBA-ism, but it's helped me tremendously over the last 2 seasons.


Well, I'm used to working a little deep, maybe 3-4 feet off the endline as Lead. In a lot of my local high schools, and a coule of the colleges, that's all you can get. So I started about 3 feet deep, then when I closed down to the lane line, I took a stride back, putting me maybe 5-6 feet off the endline.

But apparently, they're only talking about getting a TOTAL of 3-4 feet off the endline. They assume (b/c in the NBA you've got fans and photographers very close to the playing court) that the official will be standing nearly on the baseline normally. So it becomes imperative to get that 3 or 4 feet when you get close to the lane.

That's fine, but since I'm normally 3-4 feet back anyway, I'll just close down and already be in the prescribed position.

By the way, I talked to Ronnie Nunn this morning about our bad "crew dynamics" last night. I asked what I can do to strengthen the crew's performance in a situation like that. He said go back to basics: mechanics, position, floor coverage. Focus on those three things to bring yourself back into the game. Then at a TO, one of the crew members has to address it and try to bring everybody to focus better. We didn't do that. Ok, that's it for this morning. Off to get a quick bite.

Hope everybody's having a great weekend.

Re: Re: Huh?
 

Aha! I, now, remember you writing that. Thanks.
3-4 feet seems close to me, but I can live with it.
Do they teach opening up for rebounds?
Thanks again, Chuck. I'm smarter than I was.
mick

Chuck -- It's cool to hear these minute-by-minute reports!! Kind of feeds my jones...

The mechanic of stepping deep @ the lane line - what happens if you have to rotate? Do you go straight in, around the basket, then deep again?

Mark,
When you have a backboard stand/post in the way, you do what you must. You prolly don't wanna get screened by the high thingy.
mick

What is that? Sounds Aussie or something.
http://www.crocodilehunter.com/croco...oc_hunt_01.jpg

3-4 feet doesn't seem all that "deep" to me either. But once I was reminded that the basket stanchion (Juulie please forgive the spelling :eek: ) is probably only 4 feet off the court, it makes more sense. Those NBA guys (and gal, V Palmer is here at camp!) stand nearly on the endline when they're in their normal Lead position.

As far as rebounds go, they haven't mentioned it. But in the pro game, the Lead is responsible for the lane area below the FT circle, and extending all the way to the near sideline. So I imagine that on a long rebound to the Lead's side, they would want you to open up to the endline. I'll ask during a break tomorrow. Good question!

My performance today was much better than last night. I felt a little more at ease today with my partners. We certainly had more faith in each other today. Only two games today. First game we were observed by J.B. Caldwell (SEC guy). The game went smoothly, for the most part. He really scrutinized our play selectivity. "Could he have finished that play if you'd let it go?" "If you'd held your whistle for half a second, could he have made a lay-up instead of shooting 1-and-1?" He had some good comments about my jump ball administration, and he had some great comments about crew dynamics, the Referee's responsibilities, and things like that. The story about that is long and not very interesting, but the bottom line was that the Referee needs to show some leadership in the crew and help the crew stay out of trouble when possible. (As you can guess, since he commented on my jump ball administration, I was the R in question!) Then he gave us two specific plays to review on the tape, told us to give him our thoughts on them later, and he left. He was not pulling punches, but they were delivered in a very positive way.

We had an interesting situation at the end of the half. Shot, foul, buzzer ending the period clearly after the whistle. We cleared the lane, shot 2 FTs and ended the half. J.B. asked if we even considered putting time back on the clock. Partner 1 says "no". Partner 2 says something about the clock stopping in the last two minutes of the half. I say, "No, b/c we have a second of lag time. So since the horn was less than a second after the whistle, we don't put any time back on." J.B. disagreed. He said you need to get together and decide how much time was left at the time of the whistle. I know that's not true for HS rules, which is what we're playing at this boys' AAU tournament. But I can't remember if it's true at the NCAA level. I was woefully unprepared for camp and didn't bring my rulebooks. Anybody care to pull out the NCAA book and find me an AR on the subject?

Second game was even better for us as a crew. Probably b/c I wasn't the R for that one :) We were observed by Tony Brown. Good guy. The game was close for a half, but one team had too much of a height advantage. Eventually turned into a 20-point game. I got some good suggestions for my mechanics (which have been made to me before, but it's hard to break old habits). Comments to me were about presentation and presence in this game, rather than calls. Well, except for one :rolleyes: Doggone it. But we were told that we worked the best officiated game of the day at that site, which made me feel great after last night.

(As an aside, Theeeee Red Sox win!! Theeeeeeeeeeeee Red Sox win!)

Anyway, I gotta hit the sack b/c tomorrow is an early meeting for some reason. Somebody help me out with the NCAA lag time question!! Thanks.

I wish that I could get this guy to come talk to the officials in our association. It seems that I think this at least twice a game when I work with some guys.
But more importantly, could you ask him how he feels about a late whistle if the guy misses the lay-up that you thought he could finish?

I'd really like to know what he said, Chuck.

Rule 2-5.1 -- At or near the end of any period, officials shall be permitted to consult a courtside television monitor, when such monitor is available, to assist in determining if the game clock or shot clock expired before the release of a shot. Previously, rules did not permit officials to consult a courtside television monitor under such circumstances at the end of the first period, nor did they permit consulting a monitor at any time to determine if a shot clock violation occurred. The rationale is to give officials more assistance in making the correct call in period-ending situations while continuing to limit the potential for interruption of game action by maintaining firm limits on television monitor consultation.

Thanks mick, but is there anything about putting time back on the clock if it expires after the official's whistle sounds?

I forgot to mention one incident that was kind of funny (only b/c it didn't happen to me!) that occured prior to my first game yesterday. The clock was winding down to game time and the observer spotted one of the refs walking in the hallway brushing his teeth 48 seconds before the game was supposed to tip off. The observer was ripped and apparently tore into the guy for being more concerned about looking cool than about getting on the court and doing his job. The observer was HOT. I didn't see the butt-chewing, but he was still steamed afterward when I saw him. Glad it wasn't me!

Sure, no problem. The tap was stolen and neither of partners called it. I thought it was stolen, but didn't have the best look from right underneath, plus I didn't have the whistle in my mouth.

So after the game, J.B. comes in and says, "The tap was stolen. They should've blown it dead, but I put the responsibility for that on you." He then gave me some good tips for keeping the jumpers from getting a quick read on the toss.

He said that no matter where the two jumpers are positioned, he asks both of them to back up a couple inches. This give him a little space to get between them, but more importantly, it takes them out of their comfort zone. He talks to them as they're repositioning. He says, "Let it go all the way up; I'm gonna give both of you a fair shot to get to it." Then he varies his rhythm for the toss. Sometimes he'll bounce it first, sometimes not. Sometimes he'll toss it right away, sometimes he holds onto it for an extra second or two. He basically doesn't want anybody to get too comfortable with timing his toss.

I'll have one chance to toss today, so I'm going to try out the advice.

Last note for the morning. I'm staying with my dad and making these posts with his computer. It needs a minor repair, so I may not get back online till I get home. If you don't hear from me for a couple days, that's why. Take care everybody.

http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/baske.../20030218.html

Interpretation (1/30/03)

When there are two whistles, one signifying the end of the game and one signifying a foul, the official may go to the monitor to see which whistle stopped the electronic timing device. <i>This may only be done if a timing device is being used where the whistle stops the clock.</i> The official may check <u>to see if time needs to be put back on the game clock</u> because an error may have occurred with the timing device.

I'm assuming that "the tap was stolen" means that someone tapped it before it reached it's highest point? Or that one of the jumpers grabbed it?

This detail of attention is really amazing. I can see I've got A LOT to work on!!

I'm sure you've looked it up by now, Chuck, but for other's reading enjoyment...

NCAA Rule 2-12/Art. 10, A.R. 27 Case play has the official seeing the clock as he blows the whistle to stop play and it is at five seconds. If more than one second goes off, an "obvious timing mistake" has been made and the clock should be reset to five seconds. This is where the one second lag time comes from.

I do however, subscribe to and practice the theory that the one second lag time is out the window if I look up at the clock after the whistle has blown instead of looking at it while it is being blown. The timer should be able to push the button in the time it takes me to look at the clock if I am not already seeing it. I have received big kudos this summer for being aware of the clock, even had it changed three times in one very close game and got nothing but backslaps for being aware and taking charge. I would have put time back on in your situation, I'm sure.

I enjoyed reading this post. I'm a little jealous of Chuck, seems like a great learning experience.

I haven't been frequenting the forum lately, so I am unaware of this camp. Is this an NBA camp?

Now, I'm not bitter about that . . . . . :p




Well, not anymore under NCAA rules. (I liked R required to toss - it made it easier for me as scorekeeper to know who the R was.) During his camp, J.B. wouldn't stop telling us about how stupid he thought that requirement was . . .



I had the same situation happen during one of my camp games - whistle followed by immediate horn. We shot the FT's, ended the quarter, and our evaluator said we should "never" end the quarter/half with free throws - always put either 0.2 or 0.4 on the clock.

By college rules, he's right - no lag time. First, from a January 2000 women's bulletin:
This seems to be backed up by 5-9-1 - the game clock shall be stopped when an official [whistles].

AR 3 provides for going to the monitor, but describes a situation where there is a foul, whistle, and then the horn sounds - it does not, however, state to automatically put time back on the clock.

Any thoughts on this?

It means the former, Juules.

You and me both, girl. You and me, both. But it sure has been fun.

It's not an NBA try-out, if that's what you mean. It's run by Ronnie Nunn, the new Supervisor of Officials for the NBA. It emphasizes NBA philosophies and mechanics, but is a great learning experience for any level of ball.

[Edited by ChuckElias on Jul 29th, 2003 at 09:56 PM]

Well, we were playing by Fed rules ;)

Final Report
 

Thanks to everybody for the info on putting time back on the clock. Good stuff to know.

Well, camp is now done, so this is my final report. I did 3 games yesterday. Unfortunately, each one was at a different game site. First game at Disney's Wide World of Sports complex. Then a 35 minute drive to a "local" high school. Then another 40 minute drive to a rathole of a facility. We had to dress in a coach's "office", with no AC, no fan, no shower. But there were plenty of mosquitos, b/c you had to go outside to get dressed. But moving on. . .

Game 1: Observed by Violet Palmer. The game was lopsided, but both teams were energetic and were fairly talented. The winning team just had too much height advantage. They ran us pretty hard. Violet told me that my signals are still too fast, but liked my positioning and movement at the C position.

Violet is absolutely wonderful. She is very calming and reassuring, even while being critical. She was very positive toward us. At halftime, we met together and she was quiet for a moment before she started her comments. I'm thinking, "uh-oh". Then she said, very slowly, "Verrrry nice," looking at each one of us as she said it.

I asked her the question about how the Lead should cover long rebounds or 3-point tries on his/her side of the court (that's for NBA coverage only). I asked if the Lead should "open up", that is make the shoulders parallel to the endline. She said NO. Keep the 45 degree angle but step backwards toward the near sideline.

Without doing too much more gushing, it was a real pleasure to meet her and work with her, however briefly.

Game 2: Observed by Jim Clark

This was a ragged game with lots of pressing, lots of hands, lots of wild drives to the basket, lots of intensity. Our officiating was also pretty ragged in the first half. We left the court at halftime feeling really lousy. It seemed like we were letting the players dictate the game and we weren't adjusting. We were all upset with ourselves.

Jim came in the dressing room and told us, "That was not a good half. But it wasn't as bad as you all think it was." We talked about the situations that had bothered us, and the general tone of the game. As a crew, we said "Screw the tone they want. Let's work harder and set the tone that we want." So I think we worked very hard in the second half. We had 4 or 5 offensive fouls in the first 4 minutes or so. The players adjusted. We weren't perfect, by any stretch, but we all finished the game feeling that we had done 100% better than in the first half.

This was a good contrast to my earlier game where the crew never did mesh and the entire game suffered. This time, we were able to re-focus and work together and get the game back. I was actually pretty proud of our crew after the second half.

Game 3: Observed by TV, himself; Teddy Valentine.

10 pm game in a frickin' PIT of a gym. Best game of the day, tho. It was close the whole way, ended up being about an 8 point difference. We felt in control the whole way. The calls were quality, we jumped on some early trash-talking (I got to whack the kid :) ), and the players again responded by playing pretty good ball. I had a couple GT calls.

Teddy gave us some good comments on presentation. He also gave me some good ideas on how to deal with a coach that was complaining about a continuation play that I called. Teddy said, "Don't listen to that. Tell him, 'Foot, hand, arm movement, Coach. Only takes one to start the shot'." I kinda liked that one.

After the game, he said that the last 3 crews of the night were the best of the day. "So if I were assigning the Final Four, y'all would be movin' on to the next round". That was a good feeling.

After the game, there was a pizza and drinks social back at the hotel. I didn't actually get home till 1:30 am. Of course, I still had to be up for a 7:45 meeting this morning. I'm still yawning. . .

The meeting this morning was a lecture from coach Brendon Surr (sp?), former assistant to Chuck Daly on the Detroit Pistons Bad Boy championship teams. He gave a wonderful talk on the official's role as coach during the game. It was a great perspective. He was overwhelmingly positive. Sometimes, your partner is having an off night and you have to coach him thru it. How do you do that without embarrassing him/her, or without hurting his/her feelings? How do you help a coach to back "from the ledge"? He seemed like a great guy.

Only one game today, at 1 pm. Violet Palmer was again "observing". But she told us, "I'm not critiquing today. You guys know what we've been telling you. Critique yourselves. I'm just here to watch a good game. Go have some fun." See? She's awesome.

Game was very competitive, close the whole way. I had a couple moving screens, a PC when the dribbler swatted away the defender's hand. Again, the crew worked together very well. The quality of the campers here was very high, I think.

At halftime, we went over to sit with V. She couldn't help making a few comments, but they were all positive. My favorite was: "Watching the improvement in you guys over the last two days makes me feel like the proud mama watching her little ones go out and do good."

Anyway, there was little else of note in the game. It was fast, above the rim, and I felt like our crew nailed it.

The camp was fantastic, thanks for letting me share.

[Edited by ChuckElias on Jul 29th, 2003 at 10:01 PM]

I don't know, Chuck, how much NBA philosophy will I be applying in my 7th grade girls games next March? I think I'm still a year or two away from using a lot of this stuff...

Sorry, near sideline. Duh. My bad. I'm going back to fix it now.

Probably not a lot. But you'll be doing some Varsity HS, too, and I think some of what we did this week will be a help to me in my HS games.

1) Patient whistles.
2) Deliberate signals.
5) (Three, Sire!! Three!!)
3) What has to be called?
4) Crew dynamics.
5) Game awareness.
6) Play selectivity.
7) SBQ.

These aren't exclusive to NBA games. But hearing a different and more directed perspective on these was terrific.

[Edited by ChuckElias on Jul 29th, 2003 at 10:43 PM]

You're right, of course. I was just pointing to your statement about ANY level.

I had to go change my clothes after i read your thing about Violet Palmer, becuase the shirt I had on clashed with the bright green color of my face, I'm so envious. Sounds fantastic.

What does #5 (the first one) mean Chuck? (Three, Sire...) What did they have to say about that?

You know, as I thought about this last night, I think most of those things really are applicable in our JV, junior high, and middle school games. Good table communication (deliberate signals), crew dynamics, game awareness, and especially play selectivity are all crucial in those games where anything might happen. You simply can't call every little infraction. So I think I'll stick with my original statement about a great learning experience for any level.

Did I mention that she was wonderful? :)

Sigh. Oh, Dev, you have so much to learn. Kids today don't take the time to learn even the most basic facts about world history. :(

That is, of course, a reference to King Arthur's legendary difficulties with math, as captured in the erudite and entirely thorough documentary entitled "Monty Python and the Holy Grail".

Re: Final Report
 

Pictures at 11 . . . . .



Chuck --- I'm starting to wonder about this. I know my reporting is a bit fast (I can feel it, somehow), but everyone down south makes it sound like I'm going 75 in a 15 zone. Has anyone up north made similar comments?

Nobody made it sound quite that bad, but I think almost everybody has a tendency to rush their reporting. I don't know why. The last couple days of camp, I just tried to find a smooth rhythm to my reporting to keep me at a steady pace. I think it's not a HUGE deal, but it's a matter of presentation. The better, smoother the presentation, the more convincing it is. I guess.

Not that I'm any good at this slowing down thing, but, I think, it also sends a very clear message that you are in charge and in control of yourself and the game. You come across as unhurried and unaffected by what just happened. Now I just wish I could figure out how to slow myself down :( I tend to come across as frantic and a little frazzled because I hurry too fast.

So that's my problem - I hurry too slow! http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/...smiley-006.gif

Hurrying slow would be an improvement :D

Thanks Chuck. I also learned about this play the hard way last week. In one of my LV games I was the U1 and the tap was stolen. I recognized that it was, but thought it was not a big deal and let it go. Unfortunately, A1 stole the tap, A2 caught it and fired a quick pass to A3 for a lay-up. The ball was in the basket in about 2 seconds.
The game was really well played and finished 83-81 in favor of the team wearing red. We only called about 10 total fouls in the entire game. I left the court feeling great and thinking what a wonderful job we did. We got over to our rest area and were sipping some drinks when my good friend who was the R for the game said to me, "I only had one problem with that game. You let Red steal the tap."
Talk about crushed. I felt about two inches tall. I had completely forgotten about the tap play. Now I recalled it with perfect clarity.
My buddy had politely and correctly let me know that I had made a critical error before even a second was off the clock. He said that he would have called it back himself, but he always tosses with his whistle out of his mouth and by the time he found it the ball was already in the basket. He was depending on me, and I let him down. While I probably didn't cost White that game, I at least gave Red an unfair 2 point advantage, the winning margin as it turned out. So much for feeling good about that game. It won't happen again.
PS I really wanted to hear J.B.'s take on that late whistle. Hopefully, you were able to ask him or have some contact info for him.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Jul 31st, 2003 at 02:03 AM]

Jeez, I'm sorry Nevada. I never did ask him, and I don't have contact info for any of the staff. :( How late of a whistle are we talking, here? Three dribbles then the layup? I'd guess too late. But I dont' know what JB would say. Sorry

Let's say no dribbles are involved. A1 ends his dribble and makes a move to the basket. B1 bumps/hits him while he is in the act of shooting. The official holds his whistle to see if A1 can make the lay-in. A1 gets a good shot at it, but misses. Total time, maybe two seconds. Can you blow the whistle as soon as you see the shot is not going in and put A1 at the line for two?
That is the question I wanted an official from the SEC to answer.
I personally do this quite frequently. If the shot goes, I have nothing. If he misses, I call the foul late.

Wow, really? You don't ever call a foul on a made basket?

If I picked this up from somebody doing my game, I'd flip out. Maybe we are going at a player who we want to get in foul trouble. ("Now team, if you get contact from #33, make sure to miss the shot or the ref won't call the foul.")

It is a foul when the contact is illegal or puts the shooter at a disadvantage. Even disadvantaged shooters make the shot sometimes. Just because the result was a made shot doesn't mean that at a disadvantage didn't take place.

Also, aren't you setting a tone that illegal contact on the shooter is allowed? I know as a player, when I do something that doesn't get called, I'll do it more and more.

PACoach,
Nevadaref seems to think outside the lines from time to time.
mick

Easy there Coach! Remember the context of what Chuck and I were discussing. These are plays from one of Chuck's games at a camp in which there was some contact, but not a great deal, either as a player was making a move past his opponent for a clear scoring opportunity or as a player made a lay-in. His partner called a foul on the play. The evaluator, J.B. Caldwell, a D1 official in the SEC, questioned a quick whistle on these type of plays with comments such as, "Could he have finished that play if you'd let it go?" "If you'd held your whistle for half a second, could he have made a lay-up instead of shooting 1-and-1?"
Now while in my last post I did write the the defensive player "bumps/hits" the offensive player, I assumed that Chuck would take it in the same context as JB was talking about and understand that I mean only a little bump or a flick on the arm as the player powers to the basket.
JB was gently telling this official at that camp that he thought the contact on that play was not severe enough to prevent normal offensive movements (4-19-1) or put that player at a disadvantage. In fact, calling the foul too quickly may have taken away an advantage or scoring opportunity from the offense.
All good officials use the advantage/disadvantage philosophy to some degree, and that is all we are discussing here.
Of course, if the contact is a solid whack or the bump/push is hard enough to make me believe that the offensive player now has a significantly harder shot, I WILL call the foul whether the goal is successful or not.
Lastly, this discussion also is much more pertinent to boys' games than to girls'due to the amount of physical contact the players can be expected to handle.

Mick is right here. I do tend to take a different approach at times. I like to push the envelope on wording of the rules, philosophy, and human interactions in the game.
For example, you said that you would flip out if you merely picked up on an official doing this in your game, what if the official flat out told you he was doing this?
In the recent tournament that I did in Las Vegas I told a coach from Oregon straight to his face that I would never call a travel on a certain play that he was whining about.
The play in question was that twice in the first 5 minutes of the game his team's press was broken for uncontested lay-ups. On both plays I was the lead and the player making the basket with no one within 30 feet of him probably took an extra half step. I ignored it both times. The coach complained to me after the second play that this was a travel. I told him that he should be more concerned with his team getting back on defense and that if he didn't have a defender anywhere in area I was never going to call that a travel. He really didn't like that saying that a travel was a travel, but I believed that he was simply begging for anything that would help his team after they had not played quality defense, and told him I will call advantage/disadvantage. I don't feel a bit bad about what I said to him and I would do it again. Incidently, his team lost 80-77 in 2OT. I'm sure he thought that I screwed him.

There's your problem right there,Nevada. You're talking about a defender fouling a player that's IN the act of shooting. Then you're asking J.B. Caldwell to comment on whether you should call a foul that occurs BEFORE the act of shooting even starts.Apples and oranges! There's a big difference between the two- that difference being in one case you're holding up on your whistle to see if a scoring opportunity will occur,and a completely different case when they are already in the scoring opportunity.You don't get 1-1 for being fouled in the act of shooting,Nevada.

Gotta agree with the Coach on this one!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 2nd, 2003 at 02:39 AM]

Mick is right here. I do tend to take a different approach at times. I like to push the envelope on wording of the rules, philosophy, and human interactions in the game.
For example, you said that you would flip out if you merely picked up on an official doing this in your game, what if the official flat out told you he was doing this?
In the recent tournament that I did in Las Vegas I told a coach from Oregon straight to his face that I would never call a travel on a certain play that he was whining about.
The play in question was that twice in the first 5 minutes of the game his team's press was broken for uncontested lay-ups. On both plays I was the lead and the player making the basket with no one within 30 feet of him probably took an extra half step. I ignored it both times. The coach complained to me after the second play that this was a travel. I told him that he should be more concerned with his team getting back on defense and that if he didn't have a defender anywhere in area I was never going to call that a travel. He really didn't like that saying that a travel was a travel, but I believed that he was simply begging for anything that would help his team after they had not played quality defense, and told him I will call advantage/disadvantage. I don't feel a bit bad about what I said to him and I would do it again. Incidently, his team lost 80-77 in 2OT. I'm sure he thought that I screwed him.
[/B][/QUOTE]As far as I'm concerned,I'll agree that you screwed the Coach.You screwed the poor kids on his team too. You're flat out wrong on this one! Don't try to apply an NBA philosophy to games being played at other levels. Advantage/disadvantage DOESN'T apply to players taking an extra,illegal step. Never has and never will,especially at the high school level. Maybe in a blowout,you can turn a blind eye on an extra step,but to not make the call properly in a close game is absolutely freaking ridiculous!And to top it all off,you then admit to the coach that he is right,but you didn't feel like calling it according to the rules? WOW!

You're not pushing the envelope,Nevada. You're creating your own personal set of rules. Good luck to ya!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 2nd, 2003 at 06:52 AM]

JR, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect that. I wonder how others on this board feel about this play. I'll just wait for more responses and see who they agree with.
In addition, I can relate a story to you from a game I watched in last year's Christmas tournament in Las Vegas. (Rankings are from USA Today's national HS boys poll)#8 Oak Hill was playing #24 Cheyenne HS (from Vegas) with time winding down in the 4th quarter. Cheyenne had the ball down one. They were in a spread offense with their point guard dribbling near the division line waiting for the clock to run down far enough so they could take the last shot of the game. Oak Hill was letting them employ this strategy and was sitting back inside the three-point line applying absolutely no defensive pressure at all.
With about 15 seconds to go the point guard standing all by himself near half court palmed the ball. The trail official called it. Cheyenne had to foul, Oak Hill made their free throws and eventually won by 6.
The tournament director and the assignor for Las Vegas HS ball and some other officials who worked the state tourney all agreed that this was a terrible decision by the trail official. Each of them told me that in the absence of defensive pressure, the kid could stick the ball down his shorts and they wouldn't call it. General argument: If the defense doesn't do anything to deserve the ball, why should an official stop the game and simply give it to them?
This is why I don't call that travel.

I agree, JR.
If defense disrupts the offense, it has done its job.
If we do not allow traveling on the front end of a press, then we should not allow traveling on the back end of the press.
In Neveadaref's play the defense did work, because it caused the offense to violate.
By Nevadaref's reasoning, a player that breaks away from a defender by more than a few feet, may travel freely.
If that is the case, give me Barry Sanders and you can have Shaq.
<HR> Call it the same on both ends.

For my money (i.e. $0.02), I think you have two very different situations here.

In the case you cited above, you have a situation where both teams have agreed that they will just stand there and let some time run off the clock. They have agreed that for a period of time there will be no contest.

In the other case, both teams are playing, the offensive team has beaten the press, decisively, but then fails to finish cleanly. The defense may have even given up. But this is not a case of both teams agreeing to a no contest.

I wouldn't call the palming in the first case either. But you gotta believe that I'm calling the traveling.