Syracuse-Indiana clips(s)
 

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Play 1 - am I missing something? I see a guy making a layup.

Play 2 - looks like a shuffle, but its really quick and official is running in transition with the play, that would be a tough call to make on the fly.

I don't see anything close to a travel on play #1.

Play #2 might be a travel if we were allowed to ref games while they were shown to use in slo-motion. If it is a travel, it's hard to detect at full speed.

During the broadcast, they went on and on about that first play being a missed travel. I didn't think it was in real time... and then every time they replayed it I was even more sure.

It's back to the difference between the rule (Gather, pivot, etc) and the perception of the rule (3 steps!)

If you stop the video at 11 seconds, the player has both hands on the ball and the left foot on the ground (just outside the FT circle).

When the left foot touches again, it's a travel.

From this angle you can't tell the exact moment the gather takes place, but I'm placing it at the free throw line, at which time his left toe may be on the ground.

On replay play #1 MIGHT be a travel.

And that's why it wasn't and shouldn't be called.

The announcers don't know what they are talking about. And the reasoning in the other thread that it was an obvious travel b/c of the distance covered is flawed. Good basketball players get to the basket on two dribbles all the time from 28' in.

Play #1 is a travel. I actually DVR this play when it happened. He has ended his dribble (gathered two hands on the ball) with left foot on the ground, making it the pivot. A travel occurs when pivot foot returns to the floor and ball is still in his grasp - this happened in this play.

Distance covered is an awful way to try to adjudicate these type of plays (and I know it wasn't you that brought this up). If you're 6'6 (as is listed for the player in the clip above), of course you're very easily going to cover a lot of distance.

Sorry, not seeing a travel here.

Peace

I am not going to be 'That Guy' calling travel.
Just because it might look bad, does not indicate that it is a violation!
And not all athletic moves are legal!;)

I clearly have his right foot as the pivot foot. I do not even know how you think the left foot is his pivot foot as he had not gathered the ball yet. Both hands do not hit the ball until his left foot is on the ball. Do people really consider the ball coming to "rest" any earlier than that? And if you do, are you going to make that determination that fast?

If that is called, I can only wonder what other bad travels people call?

Peace

I thought play one was a travel when I saw it live. In my humble opinion the replay confirms it for me. He picks the ball up with his left foot on the floor. steps with right, steps with left and doesn't shoot or pass before it hits again.

#1: He gathers with his right hand and with left foot on ground, followed by right foot on ground, followed with left foot on ground again.

#2: In transition it's very hard to catch that shuffle at full speed.

I agree. It might have been seen as a dribble or not complete control of the ball. And this was much more "obvious" than the first play.

Peace

On #1, the point at which you'd call a shooting foul is the point where he gathers the ball. It's hard to tell whether his left is still on the floor, or whether it's just barely off the floor. If I can't tell, I'm not calling it.

I was the one that remarked on the distance covered. Of course no one would make the call based on that alone, but it is further evidence. Not saying it can't be done, but somebody show video of a layup, in traffic, where the last dribble was right at the 3 point arc.

That is one of the worst judges of a travel or even evidence as anything. A tall player that is well over 6 feet tall can cover a lot of distance in a couple of steps and moving at full speed. Either you judge which one is the pivot foot or you don't. But how far someone moves is very silly. Because I would think a college player can cover more distance than a JH player doing the same move. Sorry, but that part of this discussion is lame. If you want to debate when he gathered the ball and which one is the pivot foot then OK, that part at least has merit.

Peace

That's the whole point he covered a lot of distance. But when the pivot is at the top of the key, a couple of steps is a travel.


Seriously, this thread seals the deal for me.

He hadn't/may not have finished "gathering" the ball. This, it seems, translates to "do not call a travel."

No, the rules are clear what a player does to stop a dribble. It does say it must come to rest in that one hand or both hands must touch the ball. He did not have both hands come to the ball and it does not appear the ball came to rest in that one hand when the foot you claim was when that point took place. I am just saying that is awful quick to make that determination and in the "real world" with athletes this big and fast, you better be sure. And it is totally in doubt when the dribble actually stopped.

Peace

I have never used distanced cover and never heard anyone use that as any criteria. And it think it's an even sillier piece of evidence to use when you consider even the caliber of athletes in some high school games.

I have never used it to make the call either, but physics plays a part in most things. Show me a video and I may say, "Gee, you're right. That's easier than I thought."

But the play at hand is still a travel.

Period

Anybody that can look at this is slow motion and argue it? I don't get it.

#1 the problem with the travel on the finishing steps is is going to come down to determination of when the player gathered. I actually think there may be a travel on the inital take of as he appears to jump with both feet and reach out with the ball but not actually push in to the floor until he's left the floor and is moving past defense.

#2 Probably a shuffle in there but hard to see at speed and as a transitioning official.

1. It had come to rest in one hand while the left foot was still flat on the floor.

2. He had both hands on the ball before the right foot ever passed the free throw line. The pivot was still very firmly on the floor.

3. I gotta back the announcers. This was a pretty easy call in real time.

Yes, one will fool you on occasion, but on this one the video proves the violation. But, that's fine. This is what the powers that be want "at this level" apparently. When in doubt, no call, and you can doubt anything.

Tough Call, Either Way ...
 

Play #1: I think that the right foot is the pivot foot, and, thus, no travel.

+1. The ball is in his right hand, dribble stopped, with his left foot on the floor.

Exactly. This is clearly a travel, I thought it was when I saw it live.

Let the discussion...continue
 

If that isn't the end of a dribble, what is? Left foot on the floor. He is going to take three steps, right, left, right.

Where's The Bear ???
 

Nice photo. I stand corrected.

If you have to freeze a photo determine something, then it is not as clear as you say it is.

Peace

Agree. Dribble ended. Pivot foot left. Travel.

Clearly a travel in a still shot, but he only takes two steps (right, left). However, the second step is the pivot foot returning to the floor. To say this is clearly a travel at real-speed is a farce, in my opinion. It looked funny, but strange isn't necessarily illegal. I have no problems without a whistle on this play.

It is fine to have no whistle on this play...I can accept that as too close to call live. But, it IS a travel and not being able to see it live doesn't ever change what it was.

Some of us, including the announcers, didn't need to freeze it.

In my original thread I mentioned that he travelled at the start of his dribble, but in real time it would have been hard to pick up.

It is a travel in your judgment, do not speak for the rest of us or claim that this has to have a call. We do not officiating in still photos and honestly I do not see a foot clearly on the floor and I do not see clear possession. It is a still photo, it is not how we call the game.

Peace

As you can see from my first post I thought it was a travel when I was watching the game live. He also takes three steps. He takes another step after his left foot hits the floor and jumps off his right foot to shoot.

I agree it's a travel but not b/c of "right, left, right". It's because of "lifts left foot (pivot) and replants it to jump.

He jumped of his left foot.

And where is steps in the rulebook again? That is about as bad as saying how far he traveled on the floor (pun intended).

Peace

You're correct, my mistake. Still a travel.

Really? I know we don't deal in still photos, all I'm saying is I saw it in real time

So the announcers guessed correctly on a play that looked awkward and "video" supported it this time. It's certainly not blant enough to be as adamant as they were about it.

And once again, a lot of high school officials call anything looking funny to them as a travel. You even used a standard that was not rule based and now because there is a still picture that shows a foot on the ground, but we cannot see control, now I am supposed to agree with the announcers?

I have said this before, if you have to slow something down to determine something, then it is not obvious enough to call. And it was not obvious (it still isn't). And if guys are calling this, they will call ones that are not there because of how it looks and not what actually happened.

This play looks like a video I showed a while ago.

Peace

I know steps isn't in the rule book. Just my way of saying lifting the pivot foot and returning to the floor without shooting or passing. I will try to work on that.

I agree with all the philosophy stuff you've been saying.

But, this one was obvious to me. I saw the posted play. I judged it to be a travel. Then I read the first few comments about how it wasn't. I went back for a closer look. Still a travel to me.

And, just becasue someone did (or might) call this one does NOT mean that they are guessing and might get some others wrong.

Bob, when I have run camps and had HS officials call travels, I often ask them "Which foot was the pivot foot?" Do you realize most look at me with the "I don't know stare." May point is if you are going to call a travel, say why it was a travel, not tell me things that, "He took too many steps" or " "Well he moved from outside the 3 point line." If it was obvious, then that would have never been stated. If it was obvious then you those would have said, The left foot is the pivot foot and he put it back down after he had control. Honestly I think people here got "lucky" rather than knowing why it was a travel.

Peace

We get it. You don't want to call travels. That's OK. You've clearly established that you will look for every reason not to call a travel, even ignoring clear facts.

Yes, it often takes judgement at full speed to make decisions on plays like this and that judgement can lead to no travel call. However, what takes judgement at full speed can sometimes be determined objectively in slow-motion and the correct ruling might disagree with what could be confidently determined at full speed.

It really isn't judgement anymore when the video and still frame evidence show everything you need to see to determine if it is or isn't a travel. At live speed, I was unsure on this one and would have not called a travel.

However, the video and the still clearly show that his left foot was on the floor (to disagree with that with the given evidence is simply preposterous) while the ball was at rest in his hand. He did not put the ball down for another dribble and didn't fumble/muff it. If, at that point, he hasn't caught it (holding it), what, by definition, is he doing with it???. And once it is caught/at rest, as it is in this play, the foot on the floor is, by definition (not judgement) the pivot.

Again, it is not unreasonable that these sorts of plays might not be caught at live speed, but it is just silly to keep claiming that these sorts plays are not travels just because they are hard to see at full speed. They're just missed....and understandably missed....but still travels.

I do realize that, and I've seen that stare.

But all(?) who in this thread are claiming it was a travel are pretty clearly saying it's because the left foot was the pivot and was put back on the ground.

The announcers, on the other hand, ...

Cameron,

I call probably more travels than anyone on this site. I have seen myself on tape multiple times and call more travels than my partners or identify the obvious ones in dual coverage areas. So no you would be wrong about what I think about calling travels. I believe I even shared a situation this post season where I was the only one out of the three of my crew in a playoff game that called the same move a travel on a big man and I got crap for it. And I looked at the plays on tape and saw every one again as I did in the game. I just identify the pivot foot when I do and watch what they do with that foot and do not guess what I "think" happened.

And yes it is still a judgment, because we do not have all angles of this play. We have a still where it appears the player has both hands on the ball when it was stated earlier he had complete control before that. So yes these are still judgment calls. Maybe to you it is not because you officiate plays with pictures, but it would still be a judgment with multiple angles as to when a player has the ball in their hands or has ended their dribble.

It is silly to say that it is "obvious" when the people that said so could not tell us for the most part why by rule it was a travel when they first saw the play. Again, we call the game in live action, not by pictures and slowed down action. And we also get one shot to make that determination, not several shots at the bite of the apple to make sure you got it correct. ;)

Peace

All of them did not state that Bob. Some even said they had nothing until it was shown slowed down and the still. Again, we get one shot, not 20 looks.

Peace

It is possible to correctly call a travel and never know which foot was the pivot.

Player catches the ball with one or both feet on the floor, does a 360 degree spin and winds up several feet away with both feet on the floor again prior to releasing a shot. This is a travel, whether I actually saw his feet move or not. If you want to put it that way, the call was (correctly) made "because it looked funny."

This, in my opinion, is considerably better than missing the call, for whatever reason.

You're talking to me. I didn't need the video. I saw it as a travel while watching the game. Yes I know the reason it was a travel, the pivot foot left the floor and returned before passing or shooting, after he stopped his dribble. In the still, it doesn't appear that the player has both hands on the ball with his left foot on the floor. It is a fact, and for you to continue to deny that is simply a farce.

Semantics?

How can you take the third alternating-foot step without putting your pivot foot down again?

I am glad you did not need the video, I am glad you call every possible travel, but this misses the point I am making. I do not feel it was obvious. And if you are telling me that you and others would see the toes of a ball handler on the floor the very moment there was contact with the ball that ended the dribble, more power to you. I just do not believe you that you would get that or that you would not guess on many of these types of plays. And I also do not think that it was missed on purpose as if there is some larger conspiracy to not call travels. I see a lot of travels called at this level. Watch the Michigan-Kansas game there were a lot of travels called in that game. I do think some officials are better at getting them as others. But do not tell me I have to agree with you on a still photo. I never think that is a good way to determine something and have said that for years on this site, long before you got here. That is not going to change. And when I teach these things, I keep reminding officials that we do not get the opportunity to watch the video in several slow motion ways and different angles. I guess I just hate the self-righteous attitude becuase you think is obvious that everyone else feels the same way. And I really find that funny for those that do not work that level or any college ball on that level. Heck even certain HS players these are tough plays.

Peace

Thank you.

Well you know you are one of those people that seem to find a travel in everything, so why am I not surprised. ;)

Peace

Nothing to go find. It was a travel. You seem to be one of those people who can't admit their wrong. Have a nice day.

I did not expect you to get the joke. And it was not for your eyes anyway. ;)

And if you were confident that it was a travel, you would have stuck with rulebook language to describe what happened. You and others did not do that, which tells me it was not "obvious." You guess and you got proof you wanted. Oh well, I hope you give a coach more information than what distance he traveled and it was not even accurate.

Peace

Once again read my first post in this thread. I never said anything about distance traveled at any time in this whole conversation. I did say he took to many steps, in a later post, but also said that was a bad choice of words.

What is there to correct? He did take too many steps. This is in layman terms, yes, but is there a better explanation for what happened here?

no

So...I didn't think posting a still picture would lead to this much discussion.

The reason I put it out there was to show everyone how truly close this was. How close? About 0.03 seconds later A1's left foot is off the floor.

It's easy enough to see why anyone could pass on this in real time because they either weren't sure or just couldn't see the left foot on the floor at the moment the dribble ended.

Or they did not think he hand control at that point. There are other explanations for why things are called. And if it was so "obvious" then the folks would have described the play to great detail. But instead we get hyperbole of how far the move started, which was not true BTW.

Peace

I was not just talking about you. But something that is obvious you can describe in some relative detail. You and others that are claiming this was "obvious" did not do that. And some of you even flip flopped on what you saw. And taking too many steps is not a violation and not in the rulebook. Lifting your pivot foot and putting it back down is illegal. That is why I asked early on, "Which foot was the pivot foot?"

Peace

Which part was not true?

Pretty sure this answers which foot I had as the pivot. This was before the still was posted. If I am holding the ball and I take three steps without dribbling, shooting, or passing, it is a violation. Yes the technical term would be I picked up my pivot foot and returned it to the floor without releasing the ball for a pass, shot, or the start of the dribble.

Duopedus Pivotus ...
 

The infamous two pivot feet travel violation. Seldom seen. Seldom called. Seldom photographed. A very rare sighting indeed.

Lets talk about spin moves where they player ends a dribble. Almost every case is a travel, but these are rarely called.

I think that's overstating it a bit.

There are a lot of important lessons here for me. Judgment does not just "happen." It comes from a lot of experience, a lot of plays and a willingness to always learn. For those who judged this a travel in real time, the video affirmed that call. Just because it is close is irrelevant. It was a travel and we need to learn the judgment to call it that way every time.

For those who thought it was not a travel, the video proved you wrong. That is another lesson. Video review helps a lot. Get videos. Break them down. Be tough on yourself. For most of my high school games, there is no video. But at some gyms, the local cable stations do a major production...with multiple cameras and their own replays. These videos are excellent.

I had a late season game this year where each coach (and a lot of fans) did not agree with calls. One was a travel. The player lifted her pivot foot before she started her dribble. The video confirmed that my call was correct. I shared it with other officials...and every one said they saw the same thing on the video. But I assure you not every one would have made the call in the game. It was close...but that is no excuse to be wrong.

The other call was 5-seconds closely guarded...with about a minute left in a 1-point game. The video showed it was 6.5 seconds. My count was 6 when I called it....so my count was off by one-half second. I deliberately waited until I got to 6 before making the call. You can rightly question that judgment. The coach couldn't understand how I made that call at "this time of the game." I couldn't understand why his point guard didn't pick up her dribble. The defense was outstanding. I am supposed to ignore that?

Then there was the out of bounds play I got wrong. I did not see a deflection. Everyone else in the gym did. As I watched the video, I kept trying to figure out how I missed it, how I should have moved for a better angle, how I should have noticed the ball change direction (it was slight, but it was clear on the video.)

I am uncomfortable with those who say because it is close, we shouldn't make the call. We are responsible for getting the calls right -- even the close ones. We are expected to see if the foot is on the line or not and rule accordingly. We need to constantly learn how to be better....positioning, recognition, rules knowledge, hustle. They all matter. But so does the recognition that getting a call wrong is not a sin nor a reflection that we are bad officials.

You should stop mentioning the number of steps. It's meaningless to the rule and just makes you sound like a coach or fan, not like an official.

The video did not prove anyone wrong because these are always judgment calls. Some people want to suggest ball control took place at different times than others and that is always going to be the case and will never change.

That is not what anybody said. What people actually said is it would be difficult to catch that much detail in real time and there are those that could not describe what happen in real time when they saw the play live. You do not use standards that have nothing to do with the rule to make your case. Because if you had to describe this to a coach after you called a travel, I hope you can tell them more than steps or how far they moved when they are 6'6" and can make normal running strides rather lengthy. And if someone said the term "over the back" or "reaching" to describe an "obvious" foul, I would have the same questions if we were looking at a close play. If you cannot even use rulebook language to describe what took place and basically default to some standard, then when something is close I do not have to accept your viewpoint in these kinds of cases.

The overall problem I have is really not with this play, it is that we could show any play and people here (many that commented on how obvious this was) would find the travel every single time. It would be a verticality play and they say someone traveled. It could be a intentional foul call on video, and they see the travel. I have said consistently that traveling is the most inconsistently applied rule in the entire game of basketball and sometimes the hardiest to see. That is not going to change because people feel one way about this particular play.

Peace

You might be shocked if you looked spin moves where the player ends a dribble and then attempts a try. There are four of us officials where the running game is to find one that is NOT ... and it is hard.

+1 See play # 2 Michigan St.- Duke clips

It is overstated because all spin moves are not travels. Yes are there spin moves that are illegal, but certainly not all of them or even most of them. So Adam was correct in his response.

Peace

JRut, you did not even think Play #1 in this thread was a travel.

Most are violations. In MOST the player ends dribble/gathers ball with a pivot down that is picked up and returned to the floor before the TRY is released.

EXACTLY! Play #2 on that thread is what I am talking about. If you look at almost EVERY spin move you will see this action with the pivot foot. It's really easy to see, especially when you prepare yourself by watching these types of plays over and over again.

I still don't, but that does not mean that your comment was not overstated in incorrect.

Peace

Then why bring it up...first it's stupid to complain about a player going 17 feet (according to you) without a dribble. The guy is 6'6! If you really want to go down this line of thinking it's very conceivable that a player could cover this ground without a dribble...especially with momentum (like the player had here). And no physics don't play a part in adjudicating this play. This line of thinking (distance covered) is the crap that gets officials to call legal plays travels because they looked funny.

Now do I think the player traveled here? I do, but he was pretty damn close to gathering the ball with both feet in the air. This no where near as obvious as you made it out to be. You also exaggerated this play saying he ended his dribble at the 3 point line. The guy is a good foot or two inside the 3 point line.

+1000

Peace

I was asked why I thought it was obvious. This was a part of my description. Sorry if that offends you. The last dribble was very close to the 3 point line. The pivot was on the floor in the circle well above the free throw line. He jumped off that same foot and laid the ball in. This was a travel that was easy enough to see in real time, and yes, blatant and very obvious is slow motion. The reasonable people now pretty much agree that is was a travel, now we must discuss further what constitutes blatant and obvious.

I'll tell you what does. ALL THREE of the plays from the Duke game.

Exactly. He said "almost all" of them are travels. That's overstating. Even saying "most" of them is debatable, at best. I'm good with my assessment of his hyperbole.

Adam, if you have DVR watch every spin move you see in next week's Final Four games where the player ends dribble and then attempts a shot.