The butt bumping thread
 

Many people use their butt when boxing out for rebound, establishing post-up positions, under the basket putbacks, whether it's offense or defense.

I play pickup games and often get intentional butt bumps, either directly from the butt or the side of the hip. I get annoyed because it usually bounces be away.

Which makes me wonder in an official game, how much of your butt can you use to your advantage?

For example:

1.The offense is directly under the basket, back/side facing the defender (who is behind him) who has established a good position with arms up & body close, the offense need space, so he does a pump fake, which usually involve squatting down, butt out and bumps the defender away with the butt and takes an easy shot.

2.2 guys going for a rebound, they try to box each other out, one guy uses his butt "accidentally" to bump the other guy out while he gathers for the jump.

It's not a nice feeling getting bumped especially when it hits your tummy or crouch.

Crouch??? :confused:

At any rate...what you're dealing with, basically, is displacement. Have I called fouls on players for using their rear end to move someone from one spot to another? Yes, because it's no different than facing the opponent and using your hands to move them. If they're using their backside and you're using yours but no one is moved off their spot there's no advantage gained so no need for a whistle.

Survey Says (I Miss Richard Dawson) ...
 

Good answer.

One of the best one word answers to use with a coach when they ask "how was that a foul? All he did was box out?". The look on their face is priceless as they try to digest what they've just been told. :D

Agreed.

Displacement, affecting "Rhythm, Speed, Balance, Quickness", contact that creates an advantage (or places the other player at a disadvantage), rerouting.

Those will answer the vast majority of the myriad "how much contact is allowed" questions you posed.

I would add the concept of Verticallity, which applies to a legal guarding position (Rule 4-45).

Specifically:

Article 5: The offensive player ... may not "clear out" or cause contact within the defender's vertical plane...

Article 6: The defender may not "belly up" or use the lower part of the body or arms to cause contact outside his/her vertical plane...

Article 7: The player with the ball is to be given no more protection or consideration than the defender in judging which player has violated the rules.

This applies to several situations, but the one I see most commonly is the defender putting his leg/knee squarely into the butt crack of an offensive post player. There's always a look of bewilderment when I call that one. I'll usually warn first, then I'll blow the violation if they don't remove the knee from the arse.

I had one of those this year. A-1 shoots, A-2 uses her body to push B-3 about 6-7 feet at the time of my whistle.

Me (reporting): "Blue, (A-2), pushing."
A-2: "Coach, I don't know what I did wrong!"
Coach A: "What did she do wrong?"
Me: "Displacement, sir."
Coach A: "Did she push with her body or her arms?"
Me: "Body."

The coach had a "but, that's legal!" look in his eye. He called me over at halftime to address it some more. The bottom line is that he's been teaching those kids that you can use your body to "box out." Again, I pushed the word "displacement," and the reply was "Right, I understand that, BUT..."

Uh, no, you don't, sir.

A veteran official I respect heavily put it this way, "Boxing out is screening, not displacing." I can't think of a more succinct manner than that.

Just putting the knee there isn't a foul. Requires displacement or (less likely) "holding" to be a foul.

If the placement of the knee is outside the defender's area of verticality and restricts and/or limits the offensive post player's freedom of movement, I call the foul.

Regarding 5 and 6, some sort of displacement or advantage is required before a foul is considered. Merely "causing contact" is not a foul.

Simply using the word isn't going to get a coach to magically understand. If he's been teaching the kids it's ok to move the opponent as long as they have inside position, giving him a new word of the day isn't going to change his mind.

I just go straight to, "coach, boxing out is holding your position, not moving the other guy out of his."

I'm not sure that is correct by rule (maybe i'm not interpreting this correctly). In practice, yes, I'm looking for displacement or advantage, however, I do not think this is "required".

The full text of Art 6 is: The defender may not "belly up" or use the lower part of the body or arms to cause contact outside his/her vertical plane which is a foul.

That seems to be very straightforward that "contact outside the vertical plane" for a defender with legal guarding position is a foul. No displacement or advangage is necessary. Again, I'm not calling a foul if the defender gently touches the opponent. But it appears to me that by rule, I could.

It needs to be read in concert with the incidental contact rule.

"contact which does not....is not a foul."

I had a rebounding situation earlier this season in a BV game in which B2 moves his body, butt first, into airborne A2 who was jumping for a rebound. B2 basically undercut A2 by moving into and displacing him.

Tweet.

Push on B2. A ball at the spot.

Kid looks at me with that "what did I do" look.

You moved him.
I blocked him out.
Blocking out is not displacing your opponent.

If you're a hot mom - all of it. ;)

BTW - I usually describe to a coach that using the rear end to displace another player is a "tush push". :)

Fair enough. Like I said, I'm taking that into consideration when determining whether or not to make a call.

I had this exact same play. Long rebound, outside player jumps, inside guy moves underneath him and cuts the player coming down. I called a foul. Coach could not understand why it was a foul. Said his player had inside position. I said yes he did, but he moved underneath the other player. He said, thats just blocking out, we had inside position. He just couldn't understand. Next time out he asks me again. I just couldn't make him understand.

most of the discussion is related to boxing out & displacement, however would you guys call it as a foul when:

Offense has the ball and is under the rim, Defense is behind him close & arms high sealing off the ball path to the basket. Offense does a pump fake crouch movement & uses the butt's natural motion to give the defender a bump on the belly or crouch (you know some guys love to stick out their butt when pump faking), the defender kept his position but the bump caused him to loosen his defense and offense gets a clear shooting path.

HTBT. I don't understand "kept his position" but "caused him to loosen his defense". Those seem contradictory to me.

Clearly, I've called PC fouls for clearing out with a shoulder or other body part before rising to take a jump shot.

By the time all this happened, you'd have a 3 second call.

potato, as others have already suggested, the best way to look at any play scenario is from a very basic premise as opposed to "what if" and "what if".

Use the KISS method.

Mastering the concepts of verticality, legal guarding position and displacement will help you analyze and correctly answer just about any question that relates to physical contact on the basketball court.

here is their position:

Basket & Board, Offense, Defense.

A1 grabs the rebound, D1 is behind him standing tall & firm arms up to block A1's shooting path, A1 does a pump fake and sticks out his butt and bumps D1, D1 is standing strong but the bump into his tummy or crouch depending on the players high stunned D1, giving A1 a good opportunity to shoot & score. It takes pretty much 1-2 seconds to do such feat.

Have you ever been bumped by the strong pump fake butt bump, it's pretty much like a punch to the tummy but hurt less because the butt surface area is bigger & has more flesh to cushion the impact.

In this case i would say the butt invaded the D1's verticality & made contact with him, however since it's a pump fake it may be incidental? Sometimes case scenario is a good way to explain written rules, that is how they teach law anyway, by using case studies.

No. If it happened, I would be way the hell out of position. And I'd probably have an ejection for striking an official.

I'm sorry....I'm literally laughing out loud right now..."tummy" and "crouch"...seems like I'm reading a 12 year olds posts. Or an adult that is purposefully trying to keep everyone guessing.

Anyway, I don't know about anyone else, but that already sounds like D1 has lost verticality before the pump fake happens. Yet, there's no contact in the description, so no foul. Your scenario has to be a "HTBT" because I just cannot envision A1 with his back to the rim in the paint bending in half and shoving his fleshy butt into D1's tummy and crouch.

Crouch is a verb.

ok it's crotch if you insist.

Why is this not an intentional foul?

I read an article on this website whose entire focus was on this kind of play. The kid knows the kid is going to shoot or put the rebound back in. He backs up while he is in the air so there is no way the kid can land and will go down hard because he looked over his shoulder and backed up into his space. This article convinced me to use my body language/sign language skills to watch for information that he knows his opponent (typically taller) is going to get the board no matter what and put it back in but maybe I can cause him to rethink by making him go down to the ground hard by backing up underneath him. I am looking forward to replies.

B1 (our shorthand for the on-ball defender) will not be able to block A1's "shooting path" from behind without breaking his own verticality. A1 has no need to bump him out of position, unless he's too far under the basket already. In that case, we'll call the displacement.

But, in your scenario, A1 bumps B1 without moving him. I'm not likely to call it unless he keeps trying to move B1.

What part of the "intentional foul" definition do you think applies here?

*Most of the time* it is "just blocking out" (albeit illegally) and it's not excessive contact or contact designed to neutralize an obvious advantageous position or designed solely to stop the clock.

If you think he did it on purpose, go ahead and call it intentional. What I normally see is poorly coached players "boxing out" instead of jumping and undercutting the rebounder behind him. I had one this season, and the defender's response was an incredulous, "but I was on the inside."

Me: "You still can't push him or undercut him."

Maybe This Will Help ...
 

Ball-Handler / Hand-Checking
Any illegal use of hands, arms or body, offense or defense, that slows, prevents, impedes the progress, or
displaces an opposing player, due to the contact, is a foul and must be called. When a player places both
hands on a ball-handler, it is a foul. When a player continuously places a hand on the ball handler, it is a foul.
When a player continuously jabs a hand or forearm on a ball-handler, it is a foul. When a player jabs a hand,
or forearm, on an opponent to control his or her movement or gain an advantage, it is a foul. If the dribbler’s
rhythm, speed, balance, or quickness are affected, we should have a hand-checking foul. Tactics using the
hands, arms or body that permit any player, offense or defense, to control (hold, impede, push, divert, slow
or prevent) the movement of an opposing player is a foul.

Post Play
As lead, let’s find the post matchup as soon as possible so that we get the first foul. When a player uses hands,
forearms, or elbows to prevent an opponent from maintaining a legal position, it is a foul. When a player
dislodges an opponent from an established position by pushing or backing in, it is a foul. Let’s not allow a
defender to use a leg or knee to move a player off the block. When the defense undercuts, initiates lower
body non-vertical contact, slaps, pushes, holds, elbows, forearms or just generally demonstrates rough,
physical movements or tactics, this is a foul on the defense. Let’s make sure the offensive player isn’t holding
off the defender, or holding him with his off-hand. When the offensive player then uses the swim stroke,
pushes, pins, elbows, forearms, holds, clears with the body, or just generally demonstrates rough physical
movements or tactics, this is a foul on the offensive player. Don’t let players redirect, impede, displace, or
dislodge.

Pure gold...even thought the words "butt", "crouch" and "tummy" are not used.

Rule Four - Butt ...
 

Hey, I can add them if you want. Or, even better, copy, and paste, the two paragraphs, and edit it yourself, adding as many butts, crouches, and tummies as you want. Go ahead. Knock yourself out.

Don't be a crouch snuffer.

Officiating.com : Basketball : Undercut Foul — Intentional and/or flagrant

After reading this article and then experiencing one in a game it has me thinking we need to consider IF sometimes. Any thoughts?

yes. I think you asked about it in post 28, and got some good answers and follow-up questions that you failed to address.

First, the correct term is not "butt", but "tuchus", :p. I am sorry, as a Moderator I should be held to a higher standard, but (:D) I could not help myself.

Second, any time a player uses his tuchus make contact to gain advantage in violation of the rules, that should be called a foul.

MTD, Sr.

Bob do you have a link so I understand better what I failed to address?

My crouch hertz.

Here's the question he is talking about:

Posts 30 and 31.