LaSalle/Ole Miss (Video Added)
 

Just under 16 minutes left in second half, there was a pass-crash in the lane.

Lead called a charge. Looked like a fop at first glance.

About 2:10 left in game. LaSalle coach screaming at trail all the way out of backcourt. Then he screams at the officials during the duration of both free throws at the other end. Would someone at least give him a "cool it" signal? Geeze.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/MmcvS4JjGas" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> <iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/5OLBRJkwfp8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Play 1: Got nothing, I think the offensive player did enough to avoid committing a charge.

Play 2: Gotta take care of business. Speaking of which, how do you handle this?

On play #2 why is the C calling something all the way over the other side of the lane line right in front of the Trail? And the C had 2 players in between him and the play.

And LaSalle's coach is about 35ft behind the closest official when he is yelling out "awful", nobody is paying attention to him.

I'm glad someone else said it, because I was thinking the same thing, but I admit I have a LaSalle bias. (Coach John Giannini was at UMaine before getting the LaSalle job. I got to know Coach G, and he's become my favorite person to ever coach at my alma mater.)

#2- Ouch...New T had a beautiful view of the play. C had another player between him and the ball handler and reached...badly. Trust your partner...even in the tournament.

Play #1 - I have no problem with the call. I think something needed to be called either way and I think this was a foul.

Play #2 - This is pretty much how I feel about this situation.
Probably would not have heard him in that setting and probably would not care unless he had been a problem previously. Hard to tell the second part of my assumption.

BTW, I have no problem with the call as he has the play coming at him and an angle on the defender that another official might not. That is the competitive match-up coming at him.

Peace

Sorry, that wouldn't fly in my game and it wouldn't have flown when I had a college supervisor. We always have to know where the coaches are and what they are doing. Part of game management is having being aware of the benches and their conduct.

I can see not noticing him while they are officiating on the other end. Loud arena, tight game etc..., however if he is still there when they come back towards him, then they need to take care of it.

It is not really clear where he is in relation to the officials and it is not clear at all if the officials can hear them. He is talking but this is a rather big arena. For all we know the other coach is talking to the officials. I cannot get on an official just for what we see in this video. If they were right next to the coach I would agree on some level and still would likely be OK if nothing happened. Our focus is always the floor first and then the benches if we are in proximity to them. If not, then I would not expect any official (and harder on a college court) to know what a coach is saying on the other end of the court.

Peace

He was in his coaching box, so he is at the 28ft line in the backcourt while the Trail should be at the 28ft line in the front court, so that's 38ft. He's not waving his arms, jumping up and down, or coming on to the court. So he's doing nothing in that large venue that I would be paying attention to at that moment.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I guess it depends on how much emphasis your supervisor (or what's accepted in your area) puts on bench decorum. There is no way the center couldn't at least read his lips during the free throws. With any of the groups I have worked for, if a coach yells, "that's awful," four times during free throws, it needs to be noticed and addressed... especially after he just reamed-out the trail the entire time coming out of backcourt.

Why would the center be looking back at the coach back there?

Honestly, when this was asked to be posted, I was expecting something a lot worse. This? Wouldn't be paying attention to the coach here.

Fair enough. Who I work for if that was the reason I gave a T and nothing else, I would probably would not have a happy assignor.

Peace

This is a great example of why it is always easier to officiate a play that is coming towards you, rather than going away from you.

Why is the C calling something you ask?....because he could see it and the Trail could not. Assuming this same call had been made on similar plays earlier in the game, this is a good call.

Bull-puckies that the Trail couldn't see it. And that the play was coming at the C.

Check the play again.

The T had to look thru the dribblers' and defenders' backs to see what the C had coming straight at him.

Sorry if your video review capabilities don't include objectively looking at what each official can see given their positioning.

The lesson that John Adams learned from the 2010 Duke v Butler Championship Game was that call accuracy is almost exclusively dependant on official positioning. Per his review, when those game officials blew the whistle, they were correct 90% of the time. When they did NOT blow the whistle, they were 50% accurate. After evaluating the non-call plays again, he determined that the official did not blow the whistle because he did not see the play.

As a result, Adams was convinced more than ever that an official who cannot get into proper position, cannot get the calls right. Thus began the "end" of NCAA Tournament careers for officials that Adams felt couldn't run well.

Because the official facing the bench has the most responsibility for monitoring the table and the benches. If you are the center on FT's, how could you NOT see a coach standing ripping your partner?

The C is probably doing some other things than worrying about what a coach on the other end is saying. And if the T hears him, that is his threshold that is making him decide if he wants to do something. You should know that we all do not get upset about the same things even if something you personally find over the top. I do not even see someone saying, "That's terrible" as even on my radar. There will be a lot of worse things I might have to address and that comment would be child's play.

Peace

What else would the C be doing on the dead balls between the free throws? I have my partner's back on that one and I would expect my partner to do the same. "That's awful" in plain view of everyone in the gym four times would be an automatic here. The things the officiating community has come to accept from coaches.... :(

You mean you'd call a T on a coach 40 feet away who doesn't appear to be yelling that demonstratively but kinda just talking to himself, in a 20,000 seat arena with all kinds of noise, based purely on lip reading? Really? In the absence of any other evidence, seems like fishing to me.

From the NCAA rulebook.

Art. 2. Bench personnel committing an unsportsmanlike act including, but
not limited to, the following:
a. Disrespectfully addressing an official.
e. Objecting to an official’s decision by rising from the bench or using
gestures.
f. Inciting undesirable crowd reactions.

We really get what we deserve. We make excuses like, "I didn't see it," or "my partner can take care of himself (even though his back is to the play)" or "it doesn't bother me" or "that would be fishing."

He just ripped the trail all the way out of backcourt. He isn't talking to himself. And you don't have to give a T if you don't think your assignor would support you, but it does need to be addressed.

We get what we deserve.

The C would probably be looking at the shooter and keeping a count instead of looking into the backcourt to keep an eye on a coach 40 feet away.

Anyhow, need to be realistic. There is NO WAY, in a D1, NCAA Tournament game...with less than 2 minutes left in the game of a tight game....no way a coach is going to get a T for saying "That's awful" no matter how many times...and much less get a T 40 FEET away from the action.

Yeah, I can see how watching a coach who is 40+ feet away and probably not talking loud enough to be heard would be more important than watching the players, who would never think of doing anything illegal while the ball is dead and an official is looking in the wrong direction!:D

Novel idea: Do both. Be able to watch the game and control the benches too. I know....... innovative and trendsetting..... :)

You don't have to T him. Just turn and say, "that's enough coach" with a stern look and an extended hand. It's funny how we (officials) talk about calling the game the same for the whole 40 minutes and interpreting rules literally. We use it to our defense to defend calls. We make fun of announcers who say, "officials shouldn't decide the game in the last two minutes." But then we say, "I'm not going to worry about the coaches behavior now that it's late and close." Players learn our boundaries and so do coaches. When we change, they will adjust.

A good article that includes some quotes from John Adams about coach behavior:
http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/ho...wards-the-refs

There's no just turning and telling the coach "that's enough." You're going to have to yell that to a coach that's a considerable amount of distance away from everyone. That or you're going to have to hold up the game to walk over to the coach and address him.

And if we're talking about handling this the same no matter what, I wouldn't expect this to be handle that much differently at any other point in the game. Perhaps if they were on the coach's end of the floor, and official would be there to talk to him...but opposite end of the floor? "That's awful" is tame stuff...but to each their own I suppose.

We can read the coaches lips and they can read ours. Again, just more excuses to not deal with the issue. Much easier to ignore than to deal.

To each their own indeed. I'm not going to "teach" a coach that he can be a jackass when he is on the opposite end from me but he has to behave when I'm on his end of the floor. Ridiculous.

What isn't tame stuff? He just reamed the trail and then yelled, "that's awful" 4 times to the point that it even got the TV producer's attention enough for some tight shots. Would he have to say it 15 times? Would have have had to have thrown his jacket at the trail? At what point does it become "disrespectfully addressing an official."

That's why we (and especially those officials at that level) get paid the big bucks...being able to appropriately draw the line for the level of competition being worked. I'd venture a guess that this situation would be handled the exact same way by this crew and most other crews. Take that for what it's worth.

Based on the garbage you just wrote you haven't even seen the play. But that's par for the course for you.

Completely agree. And I hope that John Adams and some of his big dawgs are able to turn the pendulum at some point so that coaches at the D-1 level learn how to address officials respectfully, even when they involved in intense, big games. What has become accepted is not necessarily right.

My thoughts:

Flop.

Coach is fine.

Not a good reach by the C. Trust your partner.

Having worked college ball and all my sports, the standards are going to be different for that level than what you see at the high school level. That is not anything new or surprising. I had this conversation with a D1 football official this winter. I do not think anything is drastically going to change and I doubt this situation would be used as an example of over the top behavior. I could be wrong, but something tells me this was hardly mentioned if at all with the evaluator. And someone saying "That's awful" is not in my opinion over the top.

Peace

I respect your opinion Rut. However, to say that he just said, "that's awful" is simplifying the play. He was absolutely reaming the trail and then stood saying "that's awful" four times knowing full well that everyone in the gym was focused on him during the free throws. I see people throw punches at each other for far less "disrespect" in public, but somehow we officials think that it's OK for someone to publicly denigrate us like that.

I agree that it isn't new or surprising. I do think change is coming.

The NBA's "no tolerance" crackdown is one positive sign. I've seen multiple articles from John Adams about officials needing to have the courage to put up with less from coaches. I am constantly hearing about how sportsmanship is getting worse every year at every level from junior high to college. At some point, the pendulum will go back the other way.

I actually think that some of the impetus might come from the coaches who can control their behavior. They really get tired of watching a jackass on the other bench play the fool without getting penalized.

Have to say I agree with this somewhat. I do think that part of this is we, as a whole, also have to shift our mindset in terms of reacting to technical fouls. Too often I am seeing officials criticized by observers or partners for being "too quick", or having to explain whether "there was a way to deal with that without calling a T". Now I'm not really one to talk, I have a pretty slow trigger. But if we're going to "crack down" appropriately, part of that process has to be less second-guessing of T's that are called - aside from ones that are obviously officious or unnecessary, of course.

The NCAA did address some issues of sportsmanship, but I do not recall this kind of dialog was addressed. I just do not think this very specific case would have raised many antennas for what the coach was saying. And I really think it is unreasonable to expect a coach that is across the court from the C would be doing anything or even noticing this was said. Now if it is heard in a quiet gym, then OK I can understand your point on some level. I just think most officials in this situation honestly are not paying attention to a coach and certainly not "looking for trouble" as we say around here.

Peace

I completely agree that it won't raise many antennae. Exactly my point. We have gotten to the point where a coach has to throw his coat in the crowd or run onto the floor while screaming or tell us to F-off to get a T. It'll go the other way.

And it's a total cop-out for a crew to not be able to monitor the bench area because it's on the opposite end of the floor. We don't get to just ref (and manage) the half of the court that we're on.

Canuckrefguy makes a good point. When a ref calls a T, it seems that the usual reaction is.... "couldn't you have done something to avoid the T." How about if the reaction is, "good courage in calling the T... now the coach will know he can't pull that crap with the next crew."

Things trickle down from the NBA. Just watch...... there will be more and more emphasis on cracking down on coach behavior at the college level over the next few years. Those officials who don't learn to ref the sidelines will end up losing opportunities.

Let's clarify a couple of things:
1) you've used the phrase "absolutely reaming the trail" repeatedly...I can only assume that you're basing that on his actions/body language and NOT what he actually said (since only two people - the coach and the Trail - know what was said). There are ways to address this, if you think it's a problem, and a T isn't one of them. Situationally speaking, a Tech at this point DOESN'T make the game better!

2) Very few, if any people in the arena were focused on the coach during the FT's. You are focused on him only because one camera (whose sole focus is reaction shots of game participants) showed his comments. "That's Awful!" x 4 may get addressed in a lower level game, but not in a D1 game - let alone an NCAA Tournament game. Simply put, it's "water off a ducks back".

3) Comparing a basketball game to what happens in "public" is a poor attempt at explaining your viewpoint. The two environments have no relationship with each other in any way, shape, or form. When an actual fight occurs on the court, police are not called to investigate and recommend charges to the local prosecutor.

Overall, I understand your viewpoint. YOU would have addressed/handled, in some form or fashion, the comments/actions of the LaSalle coach. Others on this forum, myself included, would not have considered those comments (which only the Trail heard) or actions (which few, if any, saw) worthy of comment or significant action. In short, this situation would not have interfered with my ability to officiate the remainder of the game. Therefore, I would not have focused much attention on it.

Well there is an intelligent response....kudos to you, sir.

This situation would have been handled the same way in an NBA game.

I don't have to be a genius to know from his actions and body language that he wasn't wishing him good health and fortune. C'mon man. :)

I have often heard that, "will the T make the game better" comment to justify not giving a T. It's meaningless. Whenever I have given a T to a coach, it has always made the game better for my crew. The coach changes his behavior (and in a HS game, he loses his coaching box which helps even more). Even more important, it makes the game better for the crew that follows mine. As I have said many times, a T isn't always the answer. But ignoring this behavior completely sends the wrong message.

You were in the arena so you know what people were focused on? I've been to many games and the crowd always focuses on a standing coach after he has yelled at an official during transition. You are right.... it doesn't get addressed in a D-1 game. Exactly my point. And it filters down to coach-wannabees and lower-level refs who think that putting up with crap like the big dawgs is the way to success.

Actually, you just missed my point. My point is that it has become "the norm" in college basketball to allow verbal abuse of officials, especially late in a close game. We don't want to "decide the game" even though it's actually the inability of the coach to control their behavior that would "decide the game."

Exactly. We have learned to continue to ref and ignore being berated. We don't think it's worthy of action unless the coach goes completely ballistic.

Well when someone makes this comment:

...he better have at least looked at the video.

#1. The Trail kept an angle to see between A1 & B1
#2. B1 never has his back to the Trail and for that fact neither did A1
#3. The C had Black #3 directly in his line of vision when he made the call
#4. A1 was going towards the endline, not towards the C when the call was made
#5. The Trail was about 5ft from A1 and B1 and the "foul" occurred at the top half of the free throw circle on the Trail's side of the court

But let's not have facts stand in the way of your smart-a$$ comments.

Kudos and good day to you Jack-wagon.

The usual reaction from whom, talking heads? Definitely not from here.

The Trail coming up the court and the C during the free-throws is the same official.

And the coach didn't "reamed-out the trail the entire time coming out of backcourt", the coach's tirade lasted all of maybe 2 seconds and in fact he started backing up towards his bench by the time the Trail was crossing the division line.

1. Looks a like aflop but he's now falling into the next/play landing area so you are no calling a play that leads to a potential trainwreck. Don't have enough on the replays to say he was wrong though.

2. Coach is at far end commenting. We've got nothing. If Wyatt can curse/lose his mind after missing a shot and fouling at the end of the Temple/Indiana game without anyone batting an eye, a coach off the floor 30 feet from the action has got to be ok ;)