Gonzaga / Southern video (Added)

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Like I have said before, show us where a rule or interpretation suggests that any movement is considered a "signal" and then you can make that ruling with great confidence. Otherwise you are giving your personal opinion that no one off this site would be likely having. Absolutely never heard this argument a day in my career before and we have talked about these situations many times before. Also many of us that you claim are defending the official at all costs often have criticized other officials for other things, so that holds little to no water either.

Peace

Then what exactly was the Trail stopping the Lead from doing then?

He blew the whistle and put his hands in the air to signal a block....that movement is considered a signal in every basketball game I've ever watched. He sure isn't waving down the beer guy.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

What it boils down to is that the NCAA has declared that once a conflicting call has been made known by showing what you have, you can''t cancel one of them. They didn't say you have to completely show it, just that it be shown. If you know what he had, it was shown.

There was a great example of it being done right at around the 15min mark of Butler/Marq. The C merely raised his fist and nothing more while the L took the call. The C may or may not have had something different but he didn't show any indication of what he had and it was over. That is how it should be done. Show "nothing".

Well your claim is that these are conflicting signals. So in order for that the interpretation that everyone at that level can apply, don't you have to have something that suggests this is the case? All the video the NCAA uses (and they use a lot of it) and they have never addressed your claim that this is a "blarge" by rule or that you have to consider this action by the lead a "signal." I would have no problem agreeing with that opinion if there was some literature to back that up. Otherwise you will have this kind of action. Right now only NCAAW has made it where you can pick one or the other after calls have been signaled. The NCAA is staying with the same philosophy that the NF has laid out. And even the NF has not said that any gesture or movement that may look like a particular signal is a sign of a "blarge." You keep talking about rules but have no rule to support this very specific situation. Yes it is obvious to me that the Lead was going to call a block, but he did not complete the signal. And as I have stated before I have seen officials run off the baseline to signal a PC foul or a block depending o their personal style (Joey Crawford) and would that be evidence of either signal if they had not actually given a signal that looks somewhat like it is described in the book? I think that is a stretch and that is really all my position has been here.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Then what exactly was the Trail stopping the Lead from doing then?

He blew the whistle and put his hands in the air to signal a block....that movement is considered a signal in every basketball game I've ever watched. He sure isn't waving down the beer guy.

Again, show me the rule that says that any movement is considered a signal that would result in a blarge? And unless you have not worked with many people, I see officials often in games I have worked make it clear they are taking the call without even having to put up their hands. Usually that is why you put your arm up first and then make eye contact and then when you realize that no one else has made a call or someone else has made a call, you then signal of what you are going with. Again, just show us the interpretation and I will agree with you if it says what you suggest.

Peace

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Again, show me the rule that says that any movement is considered a signal that would result in a blarge? And unless you have not worked with many people, I see officials often in games I have worked make it clear they are taking the call without even having to put up their hands. Usually that is why you put your arm up first and then make eye contact and then when you realize that no one else has made a call or someone else has made a call, you then signal of what you are going with. Again, just show us the interpretation and I will agree with you if it says what you suggest.

Peace

Answer my question. What was the T stopping the L from doing?

There is no rule that governs signals and mechanics, only universally accepted signals that officials, coaches, players, and fans recognize.

The L did not "put an arm up" to simply stop the clock with a closed fist indicating he had a foul, he put both fists up and started his block signal. If you can't figure that signal out I don't know why you officiate.

[cmb]

Originally Posted by zm1283

answer my question. What was the t stoping the l from doing?

There is no rule that governs signals and mechanics, only universally accepted signals that officials, coaches, players, and fans recognize.

The l did not "put an arm up" to simply stop the clock with a closed fist indicating he had a foul, he put both fists up and started his block signal. If you can't figure that signal out i don't know why you officiate.

+1

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Answer my question. What was the T stoping the L from doing?

There is no rule that governs signals and mechanics, only universally accepted signals that officials, coaches, players, and fans recognize.

I can answer your question all day, it does not change the fact there there is no rules support to say a signal is given when someone "raises their arms" in any way shape or fashion. I have seen an official do the same thing when there is a simple double whistle and stop their partners from coming out with a signal. I have really seen that happen in D1 situations. He could be simply stopping him (as I have said before in this thread) and say, "I got this." There are a lot of reasons people put up their hands.

Originally Posted by zm1283

The L did not "put an arm up" to simply stop the clock with a closed fist indicating he had a foul, he put both fists up and started his block signal. If you can't figure that signal out I don't know why you officiate.

If your argument is why someone signaled something, then we will never agree. You need a rule to support that this is nothing but a blarge and you do not have one right now. That is all I am saying so what you "think" means nothing when the rules makers have not said that applies to a blarge situation and only a blarge situation. Maybe they will one day address this specific situation, but they have not at this point.

Peace

[just another ref]

I think this is not an argument that we can have here. If I understand it, there is nothing in the books making a signal, or any part thereof, binding at any level. (there definitely isn't in NFHS) So it is ultimately a matter of what the bosses want.

Ask them.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Like I have said before, show us where a rule or interpretation suggests that any movement is considered a "signal" and then you can make that ruling with great confidence. Otherwise you are giving your personal opinion that no one off this site would be likely having. Absolutely never heard this argument a day in my career before and we have talked about these situations many times before. Also many of us that you claim are defending the official at all costs often have criticized other officials for other things, so that holds little to no water either.

Peace

I disagree with this statement. I'm sure the coaches had something to say and discussed it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Judtech

I disagree with this statement. I'm sure the coaches had something to say and discussed it.

First of all it is hyperbole. Secondly I have never been to any association, staff or personal discussion with any official that has ever said that a blarge is when an official "looks like" they are going to signal something. And considering that it was never discussed by the anyone after the game for that purpose, I am going to guess it probably is not something many non-officials are even thinking about. Just an educated guess of course.

Peace

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all it is hyperbole. Secondly I have never been to any association, staff or personal discussion with any official that has ever said that a blarge is when an official "looks like" they are going to signal something. And considering that it was never discussed by the anyone after the game for that purpose, I am going to guess it probably is not something many non-officials are even thinking about. Just an educated guess of course.

Peace

Well you have stated that hyperbole as fact in a couple of posts. I was pointing out that it is not fact. Does this mean every double whistle is discussed? Nope. But when you have a play similar to this, you can bet you will have a discussion with at least one of the coaches about it and that coach will have a discussion about it.
This whole thing could be avoided if the NF and NCAA-M mirrored the NCAA-W on this.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Judtech

Well you have stated that hyperbole as fact in a couple of posts. I was pointing out that it is not fact. Does this mean every double whistle is discussed? Nope. But when you have a play similar to this, you can bet you will have a discussion with at least one of the coaches about it and that coach will have a discussion about it.
This whole thing could be avoided if the NF and NCAA-M mirrored the NCAA-W on this.

Again, it is obvious that it was hyperbole, remember you stated what is obvious right as the standard?

I am sure someone, somewhere is having a conversation about this. But it is certainly not a common discussion. If you have been around this site we discuss blarges all the time on this site. Many times the threads start with "Almost a blarge in the ....... game." And not one time can I recall anyone after seeing the video trying to suggest any movement should result in a blarge. I subscribe to APG's YouTube site and never have has anyone when I have shown his videos with blarges or almost blarges has anyone suggested what people are suggesting in this thread. So if it was so obvious, why bring up this issue now? Has the rules or interpretations changed in the past year or during the season? If there is only one choice this should have been raised several times before and certainly during this season alone. Never heard this even be suggested on some really wierd area except for one poster that seems to want to have the crusade of that we should not have blarges. And just like this case, he has no rules support for that position.

And I could give a damn what NCAAW does. And I do not see this as a problem. They need a lot more to worry about than what NCAAW officials do. That is all I will say about that part of this discussion.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Then what exactly was the Trail stopping the Lead from doing then?

He blew the whistle and put his hands in the air to signal a block....that movement is considered a signal in every basketball game I've ever watched. He sure isn't waving down the beer guy.

When you work a game with Rick Schnur, James Barker, and/or Teddy Valentine you may have to adjust your thinking.

Like I said already, those 3 officials decided Schnur's actions did not constitute a preliminary signal. And not a single, solidary person has posted a single citation that states their judgment was wrong by rule.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Again, it is obvious that it was hyperbole, remember you stated what is obvious right as the standard?

I am sure someone, somewhere is having a conversation about this. But it is certainly not a common discussion. If you have been around this site we discuss blarges all the time on this site. Many times the threads start with "Almost a blarge in the ....... game." And not one time can I recall anyone after seeing the video trying to suggest any movement should result in a blarge. I subscribe to APG's YouTube site and never have has anyone when I have shown his videos with blarges or almost blarges has anyone suggested what people are suggesting in this thread. So if it was so obvious, why bring up this issue now? Has the rules or interpretations changed in the past year or during the season? If there is only one choice this should have been raised several times before and certainly during this season alone. Never heard this even be suggested on some really wierd area except for one poster that seems to want to have the crusade of that we should not have blarges. And just like this case, he has no rules support for that position.

And I could give a damn what NCAAW does. And I do not see this as a problem. They need a lot more to worry about than what NCAAW officials do. That is all I will say about that part of this discussion.

Peace

Another blarge - Missouri State at Creighton

Rut: See your bolded statement above then click on that link. It is a thread I started this season with a video of a clearly obvious blarge where the L CLEARLY signals a PC foul and the C CLEARLY signals a block. They both completely signal their foul. Is that not the definition of a blarge?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Another blarge - Missouri State at Creighton

Rut: See your bolded statement above then click on that link. It is a thread I started this season with a video of a clearly obvious blarge where the L CLEARLY signals a PC foul and the C CLEARLY signals a block. They both completely signal their foul. Is that not the definition of a blarge?

What's that have to do with the Gonzaga/Southern play? In your video both officials had a full preliminary signal.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What's that have to do with the Gonzaga/Southern play? In your video both officials had a full preliminary signal.

Read Rut's comment that I quoted. I read it that he is saying that he hasn't seen a video on here where it is clear that two officials have two different signals that should result in a blarge. I guess if D1 officials aren't going to swallow their pride and administer the blarge like they should(Like my video in that link), then they sure aren't going to do it when the block signal is only done half way.

After reading his comment about 10 more times he may be saying that no one ever suggests that partial signals equate to a full signal. I'm not really sure.