Wow. Take a look at this...
 

This Is One Of The Craziest Buzzer-Beaters You Will Ever See

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On the replays, note the discrepancy between the LED lights and the clock superimposed on the broadcast.

Hang 'Em High ...
 

After he counts the game winning basket, watch the referee put his whistle, and lanyard, underneath his uniform shirt as he hustles out of the the gymnasium. I guess that he doesn't want to be a movie star.

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.49306...26093&pid=15.1

Yeah, two of the three officials ran off together as the one was still on the floor.......

This was in New York. Do they not allow video review for buzzer beaters in the state tournament?

Or He Was Waiting For His Check ...
 

Maybe he thought that he was across the border in Massachusetts.

For boys, only in the state semis or finals. For girls, not at all.

This situation reflects a huge flaw in the rule itself. If you're going to have H.S. tournament games in NCAA gyms then you need to allow video review in those games if it's available. Either that or you have to shut of the LEDs on the backboard. Making a judgment based on sight/sound with a buzzer isn't easy but we're used to it. With the LEDs - since they take precedence - you're really making that judgment on "sight/sight." It's not easy to do with a video monitor, let alone without one.

SMH!!!

Look like he got it off as of the clock. Not sure the light and the clock were in sync like we have seen before. It finally shows how close this can be. This is also one time I have no problem with the officials hugging it out to have a discussion. ;)

Peace

On the video, it doesn't *look* like they ever go to the video, but maybe they did quickly when they were off camera. The one official waved it off right away. If they didn't look at the video, I wonder what was said in the quick huddle to change the call.

Something similar happened in a Sectional Final in Illinois last year. Instead there was a wave off after a conference when the calling official counted the basket (The video is on YouTube).

I am not a big fan of changing calls on the last second shot. But I am certainly away of when you are sending a team home, get it right. I think in this case they got it right. I would rather the officials huddle or make a call if it is very close.

Peace

I'm sure they didn't check if only because the guy doing the broadcast would've said something. That and the fact all of them would've gotten into lots of trouble if they had.

Kind of wild that the official who originally waved it off got the crew together to talk about it. He certainly must have had his doubts. Good job to change the call.

Lights and imposed clocks from TV broadcast tend not to be in sync...just watch any NBA/NCAA game when there's a shot clock violation or end of period/half. Not unusual to see the TV clock off by .1-.2. seconds.

The best I could slow it down (stop & go in YouTube), I see it still in his hand as the lights come on and the clock goes to 0.0. But the clock superimposed is behind by .1 if you compare to the clock on the backboard, hence why the common-taters are think he got it off.

As to why they changed the call, I don't want to speculate. Who would have had a better view that the T for this. I thought he waved it off appropriately. Was it the T that then reports the counting of the 3 after the conference?

That is normally the case because in those games, the broadcast is using a computer generated clock controlled by their own technician. It isn't electronically tied to the official clock...they just try to mimic the real thing. So, they can easily be off a small amount. That is why when ever they go to replay over timing issues, they look at an official clock or indicator, not the TV clock.


The difference in this case is that the superimposed clock was actually just inset image of the actual game clock....same lights, same font, same color, etc.

The only explanation of this is that the broadcast equipment was maladjusted....or the image was of a different clock in the arena (perhaps on the other end) and the in arena clocks were not in sync with each other.

That was awesome! Looks like it was barely off in time —*before the clock and LEDs ... but it is CLOSE!!!

What a pressure cooker, They did a great job, getting together and getting it right. I'd like to think I'd do the same.....but who knows??

Terrific

Can you imagine thinking it's over and the sudden steal and desparation heave....... could easily be deer in headlights.

Nicely done. I love the huddle!!!

Wow. Talk about razor thin margin of error. That's a pretty impressive piece of officiating.

This video is a great example why ALL crew members should be aware of the end of a quarter and have an opinion, regardless of who is responsible (opposite table) for the last call. I always try to cover this exact scenario as part of my pre game when I'm a crew chief...."Whoever is opposite will be responsible for the last shot, but let's ALL have an opinion in case it's close and we have to come together, we want to get it right".

The toughest of calls under the toughest of circumstances.

Yikes. Talk about earning your stripes!

Video was on both the ABC and CBS news early this morning.

Only ABC talked about the officials......and NOT in a bad way! ;)

Take it from the media guy :) it all depends on who wrote it. If it was someone like me, we'll mention the original call...in a nice way ;) If it's someone who doesn't know sports, they'll never realize there was a reversal.

That is what I saw watching the video as well. I also thought I heard a whistle right as the shot was released, then saw who I thought was the T waving it off. I, too, wonder what changed his mind, if in fact, he did originally wave it off.

I know 2/3 of the three officials, they did a FANTASTIC job. A real excellent representation of the officiating in the New York City area. Those two officials also officiate in the CHSAA. I'm proud to have worked with them before.

who is the T? the way he ducked, did he get hit by someone/something?

That is so tough to tell
 

I have watched the video relay several times, not using the superimposed clock, but using the clock and lights from the backboard behind the shooter. One time I think he doesn't get it off, the next time I think he does.

I think it was actually the lead official that got the officials together (and the third back from off the court), to discuss this. In this instance he likely had the best view because he was looking at the shooter and had the backboard, clock and LED all in his field of view, while the official who initially waved it off did not have all the aspects in his line of sight.

Great work by the crew to get the call right after terrible plays by both teams let this shot happen.

Had New Rochelle used a different play they likely get off a better shot then what went in. The Christian Lattner play has really worked once that I know of, when he did it. That was the first bad play of the sequence. Then when the Mt. Vernon player stole the ball he just throws it back up in the air. Had he secured it, the worst then that happens is he gets fouled with 2 seconds left. The best thing that happens is time runs out. Either way, he doesn't allow for that shot to even get taken.

He covered up after someone ran into him. I've met the guy also back in my CHSAA days. Nice guy to me when I was still a freshman/JV official.

Please note that the rule is to go by the lights when they are present.
I think that the lights come on prior to the release.
Perhaps JetMet or someone with good video editing software can capture the video and post a still photo. I tried to use freeze frame with around 30 seconds left in the clip. Tough to tell for sure.

Yeah — it is REALLY close. You can't tell one way or another from the YouTube video — would be great to be able to view the original HD video ... it's too burry to tell if his hand is still touching the ball or not.

Here are the frames from right before the LEDs come on, right as they are coming on, and then as they are fully on.

Of course, the officials didn't have the benefit of video at all, so I think that real-time, counting this is the way to go!!

http://f.cl.ly/items/1B2E2L073D45173...r_beater_1.png

http://f.cl.ly/items/430c0D1J2G130T3...r_beater_2.png

http://f.cl.ly/items/3V2P090S0D0j3T1...r_beater_3.png

That's why I mentioned earlier that if we're in a gym that has LEDs but we aren't allowed to use video review the LEDs might as well be shut off. It's extremely tough to watch the shot attempt and the lights.

I had it in an NCAAW game this season (no monitor available). Thankfully it was just the end of the half and the shot didn't go in but we talked about it at halftime. We made the decision that whoever had the best look at the LEDs should be the one to blow his whistle when they came on. That would at least help the official handling the attempt.

I did my best. I can't find an HD version of the highlights so this is what I've got. I put together a clip showing pictures of the moment just before the LEDs come on and the moment they actually come on. The actual difference in time is 0.03 seconds. Each pic is up for five seconds.

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Not accurate. Many basketball broadcasts will have a computer tied to the clock. The clock sends the computer the countdown for game & shot (when applicable). The computer will display what it gets. This is what is used during the game.

Regardless of whether the above system is used, a camera is dedicated to shooting the clock.

If the clock system doesn't support the setup (most major arenas should), or the technology won't work for whatever reason, the clock 'camera' is actually used on the broadcast. You can tell because it will look like a scoreboard clock.

During the last minute of a period, they will record the 'game' camera with the clock camera superimposed (not the computer generated clock). It is done exactly for this situation. So the replays with the clock in the white box should be in perfect sync (action camera & clock camera).

The NBA found that long cable lengths could actually cause a delay in their systems which resulted in the clocks and LEDs being out of sync. They make adjustments to compensate for this problem.

It's definitely possible that the clock in the arena is out of sync with the LEDs by 0.1 seconds —*I think that is likely the case here.

It's physics. The signal dissipates the longer the cable run. That's why the clocks on the backboard will be slightly a head of a clock that's overhead or those on a balcony. I haven't been in Westchester Co. Arena - where this game was played - but my guess is the camera clock was on the overhead device. If it had been on one of the backboard clocks everything would have been in sync as far as the broadcast was concerned since those hit 0.0 as the LEDs came on.

It doesn't get any closer than this...
 

If one of you embedding gurus could provide a video link to this end of game play...

NEW ROCHELLE STUNS MT VERNON BOYS BASKETBALL HD - YouTube

Already done.

You are a little late. We have long ago discussing this play.

Peace

I can tell you one thing for certain, it isn't the length of the cables. And you'd know that if you understood physics.

Cables are dramatically faster than that at any length possible in even the largest arena...unless they're using the worst cables ever made.

Let say the cables in an arena in New York were routed to Chicago and back before going to the a scoreboard. That is about 1600 miles round trip (about 3 millions meters). Typical networking cable propagation times are about 500 nanoseconds per 100 meters. If you do the math (just approximating here), it takes about 15/1000 of one second to go from New York to Chicago and back. You could even go back and forth between the two cities about 6-7 times before you get 0.1 second of delay.

Even if you don't want to to the math, just think of phone calls. If you could get 0.1 second of cable delay inside of a building (worst case of 1000m) and you were on the phone in New York, you'd have to wait over 5 minutes to hear what your friend in LA says. And then they'd have to wait 5 more minutes to hear your response. Do you recall any telephones that work that way?

For that matter, you can send a signal to the moon in under 1 second (sure it is radio, but the speeds are on the same order of magnitude).

Ref in Alberta just posted a thread with a link to this video in HD. Please have one of the mods merge it here and perhaps our video editing guys can provide a definitive answer.

It's labelled HD, but it is not. It is not any better quality than the video at the beginning of the thread. It is 360p.

Yuck. Could probably get a better picture by listening on radio.

Camron, trust me, I understand physics. I also work in television. The type of cables you're talking about aren't the same type of cables used to wire up the timing devices in an arena, especially an older building like Westchester County Arena.

I'm talking basic low-grade networking cable, costs pennies, nothing fancy. The cable just isn't going to make the difference when we're talking about a tenth of a second. There may be differences in the system that causes delays, but isn't the cables. And yes, I design high speed electronics for a living and it actually involves dealing with delays on wires.

If you can transmit and receive from a satellite in <.25 (1/4 second), and the distance is 45,000 miles to make that trip (22,500 one way), I highly doubt even 2000 feet of cable is going to "slow down" a picture.

Here's the other thing to think about... as long as the camera shooting the action and the camera shooting the clock are both "delayed" (right, that's what you're saying, that the cable distance affects speed), then they're still in sync.

They could both be delayed 10 seconds, but as long as they're in sync they're accurate.

And another thought... broadcasts (from college to pro) are used all the time to review last second shots. They use the same technology that was shown in the reply (game/shot clock superimposed over game camera). If the system is inaccurate, why use it?

I know, at least in the NBA, they aren't using superimposed clocks. Since the game clock is the first clock of importance when determining the end of the period in the NBA, they're using shots with the game clock in the view of the camera (followed by LED lights which is next on the list when determining end of period/shot clock period).

I agree that would be ideal. I have also worked games (in the broadcast truck) where the camera operator goofed and didn't include the clock in the shot. Then they go to the superimposed clock.

My point is simply they use the superimposed clock many times, why would it all of a sudden be considered "inaccurate" now? Just as a reminder, I'm not talking about the computer generated clock that is used through most of the game, but superimposing the "clock" camera over the "game" camera.

I may have posted about this before, but I was at a game a few years ago when the clock/TV thing came into play. Missouri State was playing at St. Louis University in 2006. MSU was up 50-49 and SLU had the last possession. They took a shot with a couple seconds left, followed by a tip-in at the buzzer. The officials went to the monitor and ended up counting the basket. A day or two later, it came out that the TV broadcast that they used to watch the replays was off by 3/10 of a second, so the clock on the screen showed .3 on the clock when the ball was tipped. If you watch the video of it below, you can actually pause it at a certain frame and hear the horn start to go off and the ball isn't even touching the shooter's hand yet on the tip-in.

SLU vs Missouri State Basketball - YouTube

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There's a picture floating about from a game last year (or the year prior) where the clock above the basket showed 0.0 and the clock elsewhere in the arena showed 0.x

(I think this is (part of) what led to the slight rule change to require the use of the clock above the basket.)

So, if the superimposed clock is the one above the basket, no problem. If it's from elsewhere in the arena, ...

In fact there was a game this season (Gonzaga/Butler I think) where from one camera angle you see the 2 different times between the backboard clock and the arena clock.

Fair enough. I assume the officials go by the one above the basket?

I'll try to keep that in mind when doing future broadcasts.

In the NBA the game clock is the one on top of the backboard and takes first precedence. Next is the LED lights, then the clock on the facades, then the clock on the scoreboard from the ceiling, then tv superimposed clocks.

I was really just passing on what I had been told, right or wrong ... I did not do my own empirical testing! :)