Scheduler is NOT my friend!
 

So after this weekend...my final in Montana...the scheduler is no longer my friend! ;)

So Friday night I work a VB game at school A...school A is jockying for playoff seeding and school B is #1 in the state. Needless to say school A expected to get routed (so the assistant told me) but as you know that never works out at this point in the season.

On the jump ball it is tipped to my sideline (3-person) and a B player grabs it then steps on the sideline. I give the ball to A and we begin play. The R had the arrow set towards team B because he thought it went out before the player touched it. We get ready to throw the ball in to start the second quarter and A coach says it should be their ball. I confer with the R and he says he set the arrow in the wrong direction because confusion so we switch it. As we turn around our 3rd partner is in a discussion with the B coach about a three that was counted in the official book as a two. So we talk, recall that we did signal a three for B #4 and have the book change it. So of course the A coach goes nuts saying it is outside the correctable error timeframe which I tell him the score can be corrected at any point. Turn back around again and now the B coach wants to know why we changed the arrow. I explain that the player caught it before stepping out, the player and coach say no way...I say coach I'll be honest, it has been about 15 minutes but that is how I recall it happening and that is what we are going with. So after 5 minutes or so we get it all settled.

So we move on, A coach still *****ing about the score change but he's known to be a jerk anyway. Fast forward to 4th quarter, 14 seconds to go, team B up by 4 team A has one TO left. They foul and put team B on the line for 2. I am C, and I see the A coach hollering to his players "bucket, time out, bucket time out". Well my partner at L thinks he is talking to her. Second shot is good and she whistles a TO. She goes to the table, reports and we take a 60 second. A inbounds, goes the length hits a trey and A coach asks for a TO...so I grant, then turn to the table where they inform he doesn't have any. Of course he goes nuts wondering who requested his last TO...partner says "you did coach". We talk and I tell her we have to T him. So we do and the whole place goes nuts and rightfully so. Team B ends up winning by 5 and clearly no one is happy.

Why is the scheduler not my friend? Where do you think I end up the next morning as trainer...school A for a frosh game. Didn't go well...issued two Ts and asked a parent to leave. What a weekend!

This is confusing. He is clearly not asking for a TO and I hate to say it but unless the coach request a TO, I don't take prorated TO requests. I will inform them that I need to see a signal. Then I will issue the TO.

Other than that the T was warranted as these coaches try to play the victim all to often. But all this is avoidable by only calling the TO when it is called.

1. If you make that OOB call, you need to make sure the arrow is set properly. That responsibility is on the entire crew, but you're the only one who knows whether B had possession before the ball went OOB. Might be a good idea in this unusual circumstance to clarify it with the crew, table, and coaches before resuming the game.

2. "Still ****ing" is itself an issue that needs addressing.

3. Once A takes their last time out, inform the coach that he's out. Sort out the ensuing mess prior to being required to call a TF.

I wouldn't do this. What if the book was wrong now you are on the hook. I don't care to know how many TO's are left and who has how many fouls. I try and keep track of TO's called in my head incase we need to fix the book but it's not our place to remind the coach how many TO's he has.

At the varsity level each team has a scorekeeper and that's their job.

I've had officials tell me that if they know a coach is out of TO's they won't call the TO.....I'll call it in a heartbeat, especially if it's obvious enough.

NFHS Rule Book: Rule 2-11 Art. 6: Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.

According to the NFHS rules book you are suppose to inform a coach when the book notifies you they have used their last timeout.

This is the ONLY time a tell a coach how many they have left. If they think they still have one they can take it up with the official book.

I agree with you about not reminding a coach how many timeouts they have left but I do, and we are suppose to, inform them when the official scorer notifies us that a team is out of timeouts. This could have helped avoid the situation in the OP.

Exactly-and when I sit on the bench doing stats I keep track of timeouts on my board.As a scorer I will inform the officials on the floor.What they do with that info is up to them.If a coach asks I will tell them.Question-why do some officials ask for players with 3 or 4 fouls on both sides? Seen it a lot this year.

You're supposed to tell him when he's out. That likely heads off the mess. And if the coach wanted to question the TO, he should have done it WHEN IT WAS GRANTED, not on the next one.

And that one time I did and after the game, which was close and the team lost the scorer says, "Hey, I messed up and you had one more."

Who do you think took the brunt of that?

I inform the scorer to let the coach know this info, and I don't care what the book says. BTW the scorer is an official.

That is what we told her in the locker room postgame. I get asked for pre-emptive TOs reguarly but always turn back to them and ask if they still want it. How many times have we had coaches change their mind.

Agreed Maven and double checking the arrow is added to my list of future things to do.

We had told the coach he had 1 remaining...again, I was across the court and thought one of the other two would have notified him of zero remaining. It would have cleared all of that up at that point.

When granting the TO after the made FT did anyone look towards coach, make eye contact, ask 30 or 60 coach? We've got to be sure that whoever called the TO knows it to avoid a conflict. The Technical was definitely warranted.

Wow.

Really? Another official who wants to make up his own rules, not those made by the NFHS. Wow. No wonder that consistent application of the rules, as written, is a point of emphasis every year.

+1 for not telling them how many they have until they are out of timeouts, then make sure to notify them they are out.

As officials we take the brunt of a lot things, a lot of which we shouldn't but that's how it goes.

In this instance it's easily on the scorer for giving incorrect information. Just as if they notified us of a 7th team foul when it was really 6 or vice versa.

And as you mentioned, at the Varsity level 99.9% of coaches have their own scorer and an assistant tracking timeouts. If they have a discrepancy when we inform they are out of timeouts they should bring it up with the official book then. So your situation was also on the coaching staff for not verifying that their own book matched up with the info from the scorer. It's not on you by any means for simply doing what, by rule, you are suppose to do.

To just say you aren't going to do what the rules say you are to do b/c you had ONE bad experience with it is kind of lame. Particularly when I think it will prevent problems A LOT more than it will cause them.

And for the record, I am someone who absolutely does not tell teams how many timeouts they have left except when they are out and when my partners tell me team A has 2 TOs left and team B has 3, I let them know I do not care to know unless they have zero.

This is not a big deal, but I have no idea what that means.

Well this seems to be a communication problem. That play should have been communicated to at least the crew so that everyone was on the same page. All this confusion did was give the coach some ammo to complain. I had a situation in a game this year during an OT jump ball, when we had possession by A1 and B1 came and caused a held ball. I had to explain to the coach immediately what we had and it took about 30 seconds so that we did not have an issue later. If it was explained better when it happened, you might not have had the confusion later.

Peace

If you tell the coach and s/he thinks s/he still has one left, then you can get it straightened out then.

If you tell the coach and s/he doesn't know s/he really has one left, then it's on them, no matter how much they try to drag you under the bus with them.

If I'm table side on the jump, I'm coming in to ask you about the OOB to be sure we are all on the same page about the arrow. I might even be "obvious" about telling the table which way to set it so the coaches know.

Any time there's a TO in a close game near the end, the officials should get together and all should be reminded of the TO situation and know who is going to tell the coach.

BTW, I always phrase it, "I know you know this, but I'm required to tell you ..." And, I show it with a fist so it shows up on tape.

That's a good way to look at it.

That is confusing..I had seen the coach at the store a couple days prior and he told me they planned on being blown out...but it is my experience that late in the season teams pull off upsets you never thought they would.



Definate communication issue. I take blame because I didn't realize that the play on the tip was that close. It seemed obvious to me that the kid caught it and went OOB. Lesson learned.

Bob-I do the same thing upon a team calling its final timeout.Upon signaling what it is (I always signal what the last one is) I put a closed fist into the air to signify last timeout for whichever team is using it and then notify the reporting official that it was the last timeout.Notification for me is like this "(First Name of reporting official)-final time out for (Insert Color)."

The Old Lead/New Trail should not even be looking for a time-out call during this free throw sequence. There is an official, Old Trail/New Lead, who is standing right there by the coach who can handle any request that may come from the HC.

How prorated or pre-emptive are you talking about? I had a situation where Team A was down 5 points with the ball. I was C, tableside, right in front of Team A's bench. Team A attempted a 3-point try. While it was in midair, Team A coach said to me, "timeout if it goes". Swish, timeout, Team A still lost. Is this something you would do or not?

Another situation in the same game, maybe 10 seconds later. I am still C, still tableside. Team B is attempting a frontcourt throw-in near the division line opposite the table. I am in front of team B's bench. The Trail across the court starts his five-second count, and Team B coach tells me he wants a timeout if they cannot inbound the ball. As the Trail is counting, Team B coach is counting out loud, "one, two three". He got to four and almost asked me for it, but his team got the ball in.

I presume doing these things is ok, but are these the prorated or pre-emptive TO's you gentlemen are talking about? If not, what would an example be?

Perhaps to make sure the players were not DQ'd on a cheap foul?

I really like the part about the tape. Putting it in my game.

Ill look at the coach after the make for confirmation and then I will blow my whistle. I am acknowledging the TO on the make but not blowing my whistle without confirmation.

In the second stitch I would have to hear him actually request a TO.

I would grant the first but not the second without visual confirmation first.

As has been said before, sometimes we're our own worst enemies.

Regarding the OP, ditto on what everyone else has said. The AP problem goes away with communication right when the issue happens after the jump ball. We should always take a second as a crew to talk when something unusual happens. It's the R's responsibility to make sure the arrow is set initially but ultimately it's the entire crew's responsibility.

The time out situation is a game management issue on the part of the crew. It's late in the game and one team calls time out. We have that dead ball period to go to the table and check on the time out situation for both teams. It's a close game. Chances are one or both teams will be close to running out. If one team has none, notify that team as per the rule book. If that team calls time out after that, it's on them.

As for this, I'm with everyone else concerning the "I don't care.." line. If I'm your supervisor, I tell you "I don't care how you feel, do what the book says in that spot." Period. If the official scorer tells you Team A has no more time outs, cover yourself by asking again to confirm...then you ask the other team's scorer if that's what they have. If everyone agrees, tell Team A's coach. By rule we don't have to do that but the extra ten seconds won't kill you plus at that point you've done your job. If it's later realized by the table that Team A had one remaining, so be it. If the coach questions me, I tell him/her: "Coach, that's what I was told and I double checked it." They might be upset but they'll live.

Also, how would you "take the brunt" of anything? Was the scorer running around with a bullhorn saying "Team A had another time out!" If he/she messed that up, I get on them, especially if it's an official. I can't assume many things but I should be able to trust that an adult can count to five.

I work 99% of my H.S. games with students at the table so I've grown wary of trusting them outright and if something sounds wrong I'll question it. My partners and I also try to communicate early and often with them. However, they are still going to make mistakes. If we've done our part then the best I can do is tell the coach there was a mistake, we correct it and we move on.

I will ask it sometimes after the 3rd quarter but only for both scorekeepers to compare their books so we don't have any surprises in the 4th quarter where 1 scorekeeper says A1 only has 4 fouls while the other says A1 has 5 fouls.

Me too. The second one was meant to prep me in case his team could not inbound the ball. Like "hey, be aware I am calling timeout if we can't get the ball in". I would certainly not want to be in a situation where my partner calls a 5-second violation on the inbound, and I come over and say "well, the coach wanted a TO before the violation, so no violation". That will never happen, believe me.

I've had a couple of games this year where someone in the crew came in and said "Hey, we have a time-out before the violation". It was no big deal.

This one is not so bad... Not sure I'd do it exactly that way, but in this particular case, if it DOESN'T go, you can't give him a timeout anyway, so he's really just asking for a timeout if he's allowed to have one.

NO WAY. No. Never. His "heads up" to you should, at MOST, make you stay aware of him, with an ear peeled toward him. But what if you were to decide, at 3 1/2 seconds, that "they cannot inbound the ball" - and then he does. This one is fraught with problems if you call one before he says it or signals it.

Agreed. It certainly happens.

Yep. As I said in both posts, it was a heads-up notice. I mentioned "he was about to call it", but his team got the ball in.

Are you talking about a situation where the officials whistled for the timeout before the 5-second violation whistle? I was talking about a situation where no timeout is granted, until the officials conference and say "well, the coach wanted a TO before the violation, so let's give it to him." Like granting a timeout after the fact. FYI: I would never do this, please do not criticize.

Just re-read your post. I've never even had a coach make such a request.

Here's the essence of what I said: I hope I never have to deal with a situation where an official calls a timeout for a coach. I can see a coach saying "hey, grant me a timeout before the 5-second throw-in violation", and then the official calling it for the coach.

Where Eagles Dare
 

Somewhere from out by the bottom of the eastern slope of the mountain range separating Seattle from the rest of the state, I can detect a faint, gratified, "You bet I am!!!"

Well, you shouldn't have if you did ... all you have to say is, "Coach, take it up with the scorer — he had zero time-outs left for you in the book."

How hard is that?

By rule you must inform them when they have zero remaining. At some point you're going to get burned by not informing the coach when he is out, just like this crew did.

I always informed them when they only have ONE remaining as well. No, the book doesn't say that you have to do that, but it doesn't say you can't. And telling them helps prevents problems!!

Problem #1: "Thinks"

Problem #2: Not telling the coach he was out of timeouts. If you do this, he likely starts throwing a fit saying, "I didn't call timeout!!!" ... And then you just get both teams back on the floor immediately and put the ball in play.

Problem #3: You don't have to T him — and you shouldn't. This is your crew's screwup. You granted a time-out that was not requested. That shouldn't be charged to the head coach and the team shouldn't be penalized for something your partner thought happened. This was your chance to right the wrong — explain what happened to both coaches and the timeout counts for no one.

Best thing to do is learn from the experience. If you do that, it's most likely that you'll never find yourself in that same predicament!

100% WRONG!!!
Your position on this matter is untenable.
Follow the NFHS rule and stop doing it your personal way.

It's almost as wrong as your bedside manner. :eek: