VC coaching in stands...
 

Had this happen a few times this year and I can't seem to find a rule or just need counsel.

I am working a Soph/JV game and happen to know the VC. He hit me in a college camp parking lot. He is sitting on the opposite bench area coaching his kids. He also would occasionally throw a fit on what he deemed a missed call.

What are the penalty s if any or advice on how to handle him.

Thanks in advance,

Hit you? Did you file charges?

If he's a "fan", treat him like a fan and kick him out.

If he's not on the bench, he's a fan. Have game management remove him if his behavior warrants it.

If he IS on the bench, he's the head coach's problem. Have that coach address it, or issue a technical foul (indirect on the head coach). The latter is generally followed in short order by a 2nd T. :)

For the future, let your assignor know what the situation is and ask that you not have any more of that team's games.

As for the game itself, since you have few options once you're in the gym, as the others said as long as he's a fan leave it alone. Let your partner know along with game management.

I do not care who he is, if he is in the stands he is a fan and only a fan. The only other thing I would do differently is report that person to the state or governing body if I know this was a representative of a school. At least it would be in a file that any other behavior would be addressed and noted based on this action.

Peace

Hand over your paycheck to one of the Var officials on next game to let you take his spot, or at least come out and go through oncourt pregame. Love to see that coaches face then:)

Can we focus on this? What was this about?

I'm curious why you feel the need to handle him or do anything about him at all. He's a fan - just like the rest of the fans. If he's so unruly that he can't be ignored - just like any other fan - have GM handle it. 99.99% of the time, just as any other fan ... if he's just complaining, ignore him.

I think my main concern is why you would choose to focus on this particular fan, just because of his occupation.

(Regarding the "he hit me", I'd think that would have been handled already in the past - I hope you pressed charges at the time, but if you did, and the whole thing is resolved, and he's still coaching, well - live with it or officiate elsewhere if he makes you uncomfortable ... but the "he hit me" should have nothing to do with this situation)

He hit me with his piece of junk trunk. I swear I read something about coaching personnel coaching from areas off the bench. If you all havent heard of it I understand.

I am sure site management is scared of the VC and is not going to talk to him. Yet it was a nice idea. They work together.

Still confused...he swung and hit you with a large suitcase? Or he backed his car into your car in a parking lot? Or he backed his car into you as you were walking in the parking lot?

And it makes no difference who works with whom...at that moment, the GM person has authority over that Coach...I don't know of a single AD or Principal in our area who would not back up their Game Management personnel in a situation like this.

And then what happened? Surely you pressed charges. If you didn't, did you report it to anyone ... and what was the result.

I can see that being an issue... but if something got serious enough (and I stress again that it's got to be WAY over the top, and not just loud chirping or things like you said in the OP), and you had to stop things down to address it with GM - if GM didn't do anything about it, you'd DEFINITELY need to discuss with your assignor.

You have not said if this guy's antics were such that you would do something about them if it was just some run of the mill fan... if you wouldn't... then ignore it on the VC as well.

Saw a similar situation a few years ago during parts of the second half of the JV game. The varsity coach would come out of his lockerroom to sit in the opposite end of the bleachers from the JV team coaching players when he had the opportunity. This obviously caught the attention of the nearby opposing JV coach who rightfully felt disadvantaged that the other team was receiving coaching instructions at both ends of the gym. The officials felt unsure if they could do anything about it. We had a chance to discuss briefly before the varsity game and my opinion to them was, and still is, that in this situation (JV/V game) the varsity coach is not a "fan" but is clearly defined in 4-34 and the performance of any of his duties should be done within the bench location provided by game management. (1-13-1) I don't have a problem if the coach is just watching the game; but if he is going to coach players and have occasional fits over calls then he is subject to penalties under bench personnel. If we were to turn this around, would we allow this in the varsity game if an assistant or JV coach were to position himself at the opposite end of the bleachers calling out plays or defensive alignments?

Nice Citation ...
 

Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with
a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and
statistician(s).

Can you please sit at a keyboard and give all the facts to this situation. I'm thoroughly confused at this point.

Coaching players and having the occasional fit over calls? That sounds exactly like a fan.

Yes, but they don't sit in the stands.

They sit on the bench or right behind the bench depending on the school or at the scorers table.

They aren't on the other end of the gym, or across the court, or in the bleachers, or the hallway, in a car, at home watching the game on tv.

Using that citation you are stretching the rule to a limit that IMO is not going to hold up.

Summer of 2012 I was attending a college referee camp using local HS teams. On the last night it was time to go get my free lunch provided by the camp at a local restaurant. I went out and I was hot and tired. I checked my mirror saw nothing and started to back out slowly. He did the same and we bumped rear bumpers. His 70's small Toyota rusted rear fender took no damage but my brand new Altima took some damage. Instead of staying put I pulled back into space and got out and talked to him. He said he had to get to a game and was leaving the scene. I asked for him phone number and name. Called Campus police to get a report. Since its private property without clear liability all I could get him to do was pay for half the damage.

I knew I would be at his school sooner or later.

The first time I was there I came early to watch the Soph game. And I watch the VC coach and get on the two referees. At the end of the half one referee missed a kick by the visiting team and he then called it off the home team. VC was so upset he walked up to this official and he was leaving and said... that is a bull**** call. The referee failed to T him up. I think he knew he was the VC. That got under my skin. They finish their game and I have the JV game. My blood pressure is rising because again he is coaching and not really on me. From what I remember reading you cant have coaches coaching from off the bench. So I go tell the JVC that his VC needs to stop coaching from off the bench or there will be a technical foul called. Its only my third year so I am trying to find my boundaries for any possible issue. And before I went to tell the JVC I told the VC it was permitted to coach the kids from the fan section. Both blew me off and I had such a physical tight game I just decided to focus on other things.

I asked a D1 official to come early to his BV game and he had this wisdom to impart.

Let me coach the kids until the visiting (opposing coach) makes a stink. Then ask the coach to come sit on the bench if he wants to be involved with the game. Other than that ignore his remarks and treat him as a fan. If you are getting distracted treat him as a fan and have site management take care of it.

In my 1k games in 3 years I have only had to warn a few fans to settle down if they wanted to stay and watch the game. They were all wreck ball. Never let a fan get to me in a HS game. This is not a typical fan. I expect the coach to behave better. Clearly that is a wrong expectation. Here I wanted to get suggestions from you Vets how to handle and when to use the rule book to put him in place when I am having enough trouble that i NEED the book.

I visit again this Tuesday. I have been working on relaxing, enjoying myself and being more loose.

I have the Soph game and he is coaching again. No big deal the opposing coach is behaving and doing great and hasnt noticed. Then one of his kids goes to the basket. Light contact going up. Havent been calling it all game. Loose ball jump ball and a time out called by visitors. He starts to go nuts for about 4-8 seconds how that was a foul. I ignore him yet it bothers me and wanted to bring this up again. So I can learn and deal with it.

I have had coaches coach and get on us as referees. One early in the season yelled at me sarcastically "Nice mechanics" as I reported a foul on his team. Then came down with his JVC and coached his kids. Started doing little remarks at me.

I want something brilliant or being told to just ignore the butt wipes when they start this behavior.

This same D1 referee told me he had come early to a game and saw this behavior to a JV crew. Told his Varsity crew about it and because the BV coach had been so disrespectful to the JV crew they didnt give this BV coach an inch in his game.

I would appreciate any more advice and apologize for my lack of information earlier. Forgot how much you guys like details to give your great advice.

Not that we WANT great detail, but from your post it sounded like he assaulted you.

Either way you have those that are directly involved with the game and everyone else. If they are not involved with the game (IE. varsity coach sitting in the stands coaching) who cares. Parents do this all the time. If I have to address a fan's behavior it's usually to have them removed (done twice in 10 years).

Other than that I just focus on my areas of responsibility and move one. Anything that seems fishy I would let my assignor know and seek direction from there.

I think the best advice has already been given...if he is coaching his kids, I don't care. If he is being an a$$ to me, my partners, or the other team, then Game Management will be dealing with him. Let them handle it.

Around here, we often do doubleheaders. Either work the Frosh game or the JV game before the V game.Had a Frosh boys game this year where the Visting Coach didn't like an over-and-back call my P made. He yelled out "That's why you are a 5:30 ref" (referring to game time) and was shocked when I stuck him with a T. Then the Varsity Coach starts in on us from the doorway area. I simply turned to the Game Management/security guy and told him that the gentleman needed to leave. So he left...absolutely LOVED the expression on that Varsity Coach's face when we came out onto the court for warm-ups of his game! And he behaved himself.

I had an interesting twist on this last year. Working a Frosh/JV double header, I was greeted at the gym entrance by somebody from the host school who I understood to be game management. He showed me to my locker room and brought us water.

During the freshman game, he is sitting in the stands opposite the bench and is yelling at us about a call I made. I flat out told him I didn't want to hear from him and then told him he didn't want to cost his team (which I've since learned was not the correct way to handle it). He informs me he is just a fan, we have a disagreement and I decide to let it drop in lieu of a report to my chapter.

As it turns out, he was the varsity coach, game management was somewhere else the entire time. That was essentially a no win situation. Then my partner goes into the lockerroom and kisses his behind after the game, making me look like the guy with a chip on my shoulder.

I learned a long time ago not to address fans. Unless a fan (during a time when I can accommodate, usually between quarters before the inbounds) asks me a specific question nicely I don't acknowledge their existence.

I don't want to instruct them what may happen, what could happen, what I think of their behavior. I completely ignore them until they need to be removed. Then I get GM to do that. In both my instances the action was so egregious I gave the good ol' point to the fan and give the heave ho signal.

I love these stories. And why it can be fun taking care of business and then seeing that face before the Varsity game.

Agree, but the definition doesn't say that.

If a basketball coach of the program that I'm officiating a game for is sitting in the stands and coaching and giving me some grief, I hope that the rules would allow me to treat him a little bit differently than a regular fan that is sitting in the stands and giving me some grief. I can ignore unruly fans, or have them removed for outrageous action. Coaches should be held to a higher standard than that, and I don't think that they should be ignored like we often do with fans.

Why should coaches be held to a higher standard? If you think that then you believe that everyone involved in youth sports is in it only for the kids.

Ideally I would like to agree with you but in reality that's just not practical. The only people I consider coaches during a game I work are the ones on the bench.


Plus I'm not sure what the rules are but you toss someone from the facility they usually cannot return for the remainder of the day. If I had a varsity game and the JV guys before me tell me they tossed someone from the stands and it turned out to be the HC I would be inclined to not allow him back in the facility.

My reasoning would be that if it were NOT the HC that person would not be allowed back in, so why should things change because the HC decided to act like an A$$.

Generally where I have worked SoCal, if someone is removed from the facility they cannot return for at least 24 hours.

Raise The Bar ...
 

A coach, who coached the 4:00 p.m. freshman game, hangs around and watches my varsity game, and yells at me, yells things that would have earned him a technical foul, maybe even an early shower, in his freshman game, but things that would not normally, or usually, get him thrown out of the gymnasium as a "regular" fan. I can't imagine my assigner, his athletic director, his school principal, or our state interscholastic sports governing body, not wanting to somehow deal with that coach. All these people, in my opinion, would hold him to a higher standard, I'm just not sure that the NFHS, and the officials that officiate under those rules, would, or should, hold him to the higher standard as well.

I would inform their AD and my assignor of this and let them adjudicate penaltie(s). I will not.

The Bar Has Been Raised ...
 

So you inform your assigner, and the athletic director, whenever a fan yells at you, but not something so outrageous that he is asked to leave the facility? Sounds like a higher standard to me.

No I do not and I wouldn't care for a coach either. I was responding to your post. You want to deal with this yourself and I am saying I would not touch it. If I were to touch it I would do it how I said I would.

But I don't care. He's a fan. I will remember his chicken sh1t antics and if I get him again he won't be given much rope before I let him know I've heard enough. But if a coach was really that under my skin I would sooner recuse myself of his game than have my objectivity clouded.

Please Don't Sit There ...
 

Fans, cheerleaders, parents, teachers, baseball coaches, players from other basketball teams, even mascots, I can deal with, or ignore. Bottom line, unless they going to act like a mime, coaches don't belong in the stands. Not much, other than contacting my assigner, who will contact the athletic director, that I can do. Coaches don't belong in the stands, they belong on the bench. It's a lose, lose, situation. Nothing good can come from it. And if he's coaching from the stands, it's an advantage that really isn't fair to the other team that is keeping all their coaches on their bench.

Billy, can we agree to disagree on this? :)

Better Yet, Let's Agree to Agree ...
 

No, because I think that we agree. You're contacting your assigner and the athletic director. I'm contacting my assigner, who, in turn, will contact the athletic director. Since we're both not doing this for the "regular" fan who gives us grief, but not enough to get ejected from the gymnasium, then we're both holding that coach to a higher standard than the "regular" fan. Voilà. Agreement. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

I prefer you two disagree. I learn a lot more.:)

not what it sounds like
 

Nope. It was a coach performing exactly like a coach, only well-outside the bench area designated by game management and maybe three rows up.

Fans?....What fans?

They are GM's responsibility. I'm not going to get involved unless they do something to disrupt the game - at that point I'll ask GM to take care of it, and stop the game if necessary while they do so. In my experience, GM is almost always on top of these situations and dealing with it long before we would ever have to get involved.

As to the situation described, if the VC coach is simply in the stands and not on or in the immediate area of the team bench(i.e. row behind if bench is first row of the bleachers), they're a fan and are GM's responsibility. I'm not going to get involved unless they do something to disrupt the game. If the opposing coach has an issue with someone in the stands "coaching", they need to take it up with GM, or through their AD with the state association. Unless/until the state association tells us otherwise, it's not our responsibility. Just my $0.02.......

We have one school in our area where the varsity coach and JV coach sit on the end of the bench during the sophomore game. They often say something to the officials during that game. This is very bush-league. The JV coach got a T for his efforts one game. When I was coaching varsity ball, I had more important things to do than that! I was more concerned about how they were playing the game and how they were being coached.