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-   -   Indiana/Michigan St. Flagrant. (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/94106-indiana-michigan-st-flagrant.html)

OKREF Tue Feb 19, 2013 08:26pm
Indiana/Michigan St. Flagrant.
 
15:27 of 2nd half. Watford got a PC foul, looked at video, then upgraded to FF1. Announcers said he got two fouls? Is that right?

APG Tue Feb 19, 2013 08:29pm
I thought they said he received a personal foul...then a dead ball contact T.

OKREF Tue Feb 19, 2013 08:32pm
Also at 12:34 of second half. Block/charge on MSU. Need this clip, Ted Valentine counted the bucket. Need to review this.

OKREF Tue Feb 19, 2013 08:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by APG (Post 880488)
I thought they said he received a personal foul...then a dead ball contact T.
They called the elbow a PC. How could they call the elbow a PC and a dead ball foul?

just another ref Tue Feb 19, 2013 08:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 880489)
Also at 12:34 of second half. Block/charge on MSU. Need this clip, Ted Valentine counted the bucket. Need to review this.
Block call was ok, I think. Counting the basket was not, I think.

OKREF Tue Feb 19, 2013 08:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 880491)
Block call was ok, I think. Counting the basket was not, I think.
I agree on the block, but don't see anyway to count the bucket. I know one thing that game in that atmosphere would be so fun to call.

APG Tue Feb 19, 2013 08:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 880490)
They called the elbow a PC. How could they call the elbow a PC and a dead ball foul?
Just flipped to the channel from watching another game and heard them say that...they also mentioned that Valentine talked to them so I assumed they didn't mess it up...that bad.

OKREF Tue Feb 19, 2013 08:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by APG (Post 880493)
Just flipped to the channel from watching another game and heard them say that...they also mentioned that Valentine talked to them so I assumed they didn't mess it up...that bad.
It looked like he got the arm in the chest first, the whistle blew, then on the follow through caught him in the nose. I guess that would justify it.

ODJ Tue Feb 19, 2013 08:56pm
NCAA - If the ball is released before contact, count the bucket.

OKREF Tue Feb 19, 2013 09:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ODJ (Post 880498)
NCAA - If the ball is released before contact, count the bucket.
Oh, it wasn't.

cmb Tue Feb 19, 2013 09:09pm
Hey guys, been a lurker for a while and finally decided to start posting.

Anyways, here's what I saw: during live action, the lead called a foul on the Michigan St. defender. During the ensuing commercial break, they went to the monitor to review for possible elbow contact by the Indiana player to the head of the defender. Since the defensive foul was already called, they ruled the elbow contact to the head of the defender a dead ball contact technical on the offensive player.

In my opinion, the elbow contact came prior to any illegal contact by the defender so the correct call should have been a flagrant 1 on the offensive player. However, that wasn't really an option once they went to the monitor since the personal foul had already been called.

On a side note, if anyone posts a video, Pat Driscoll's mechanics on that play left something to be desired. He ended up pointing repeatedly at the guy on the ground who had just been elbowed pretty hard to the face. It looked almost like an "in your face" gesture, even though I knew he was just calling a foul on him. Wish he would have pointed lower.

OKREF Tue Feb 19, 2013 09:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmb (Post 880500)
Hey guys, been a lurker for a while and finally decided to start posting.

Anyways, here's what I saw: during live action, the lead called a foul on the Michigan St. defender. During the ensuing commercial break, they went to the monitor to review for possible elbow contact by the Indiana player to the head of the defender. Since the defensive foul was already called, they ruled the elbow contact to the head of the defender a dead ball contact technical on the offensive player.

In my opinion, the elbow contact came prior to any illegal contact by the defender so the correct call should have been a flagrant 1 on the offensive player. However, that wasn't really an option once they went to the monitor since the personal foul had already been called.



On a side note, if anyone posts a video, Pat Driscoll's mechanics on that play left something to be desired. He ended up pointing repeatedly at the guy on the ground who had just been elbowed pretty hard to the face. It looked almost like an "in your face" gesture, even though I knew he was just calling a foul on him. Wish he would have pointed lower.
I thought they called a PC on the Indiana player. Maybe I am wrong.

OKREF Tue Feb 19, 2013 09:21pm
Get a clip of the foul at 3.7 seconds in the game also. I just don't see the foul.

cmb Tue Feb 19, 2013 09:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 880502)
I thought they called a PC on the Indiana player. Maybe I am wrong.
No, they definitely called a foul on the Mich St player first for the forearm on the dribbler.

pfan1981 Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:31pm
Anyone think the official was wrong to point at the MSU player for so long while he was on the floor?

JimmyJimmy Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfan1981 (Post 880516)
Anyone think the official was wrong to point at the MSU player for so long while he was on the floor?
At first, I also thought the official was pointing at the player, but after watching it again, is it possible he is pointing at the floor...as in "no shot, foul was on the floor"

Adam Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyJimmy (Post 880521)
At first, I also thought the official was pointing at the player, but after watching it again, is it possible he is pointing at the floor...as in "no shot, foul was on the floor"
Oh Lord I hope not.

APG Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyJimmy (Post 880521)
At first, I also thought the official was pointing at the player, but after watching it again, is it possible he is pointing at the floor...as in "no shot, foul was on the floor"
Get "on the floor" out of your vocabulary.

Nevadaref Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmb (Post 880500)
Hey guys, been a lurker for a while and finally decided to start posting.

Anyways, here's what I saw: during live action, the lead called a foul on the Michigan St. defender. During the ensuing commercial break, they went to the monitor to review for possible elbow contact by the Indiana player to the head of the defender. Since the defensive foul was already called, they ruled the elbow contact to the head of the defender a dead ball contact technical on the offensive player.

In my opinion, the elbow contact came prior to any illegal contact by the defender so the correct call should have been a flagrant 1 on the offensive player. However, that wasn't really an option once they went to the monitor since the personal foul had already been called.

On a side note, if anyone posts a video, Pat Driscoll's mechanics on that play left something to be desired. He ended up pointing repeatedly at the guy on the ground who had just been elbowed pretty hard to the face. It looked almost like an "in your face" gesture, even though I knew he was just calling a foul on him. Wish he would have pointed lower.
This post is 100% accurate. Welcome to the forum!

Adam Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmb (Post 880500)
On a side note, if anyone posts a video, Pat Driscoll's mechanics on that play left something to be desired. He ended up pointing repeatedly at the guy on the ground who had just been elbowed pretty hard to the face. It looked almost like an "in your face" gesture, even though I knew he was just calling a foul on him. Wish he would have pointed lower.
Interesting. I never point anymore (well, maybe twice a season or so.)

stiffler3492 Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:02am
Didn't see this game, but have heard about the infamous "nutshot" from several people already.

Apparently it happened to IU #40. Thoughts?

Nevadaref Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stiffler3492 (Post 880537)
Didn't see this game, but have heard about the infamous "nutshot" from several people already.

Apparently it happened to IU #40. Thoughts?
TV showed several replays. It was an arm to the chest. There was no contact below the belt. Zeller just bent over after possibly having the wind knocked out of him.

stiffler3492 Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 880538)
TV showed several replays. It was an arm to the chest. There was no contact below the belt. Zeller just bent over after possibly having the wind knocked out of him.
OK. I have it DVR'd. Full disclosure, I'm an IU alum and a huge fan. I'll have a look tomorrow. Heard it was one heck of a ballgame.

Rich Wed Feb 20, 2013 01:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by APG (Post 880493)
Just flipped to the channel from watching another game and heard them say that...they also mentioned that Valentine talked to them so I assumed they didn't mess it up...that bad.
(Of course Valentine and crew shot one free throw on a FF1 with a made basket on Sunday.)

OKREF Wed Feb 20, 2013 08:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 880538)
TV showed several replays. It was an arm to the chest. There was no contact below the belt. Zeller just bent over after possibly having the wind knocked out of him.
Watch it again. The elbow hits in the chest, but his hand definitely hits Zellers baby maker.

Rich Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:27am
I point occasionally at players. Normally to signify who the ball hit on its way out of bounds or to clarify who a foul's on in a crowd. It's a quick point and it's in no way antagonistic.

IUgrad92 Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfan1981 (Post 880516)
Anyone think the official was wrong to point at the MSU player for so long while he was on the floor?
Uh, yeah. Any other preliminary signal for the foul committed would have been better than what was done, imo.

scratchawl Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:44am
mich stats vs iu officials
 
anyone have a problem with Valetine having michs state 8 games this year and IU 4 games? arent there enough high level officials to go around?

JimmyJimmy Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by APG (Post 880530)
Get "on the floor" out of your vocabulary.
ok - bad choice of words. I'm a newbie, so what's correct? "Down"?. To me, it still looks like the official was pointing at the floor and not the player.

bob jenkins Wed Feb 20, 2013 01:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scratchawl (Post 880646)
anyone have a problem with Valetine having michs state 8 games this year and IU 4 games?
Not those who matter (assigner, Big 10 office, IU, MSU)

Adam Wed Feb 20, 2013 01:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyJimmy (Post 880660)
ok - bad choice of words. I'm a newbie, so what's correct? "Down"?. To me, it still looks like the official was pointing at the floor and not the player.
No, just say "before the shot" or "no shot" if there's any question.

The fact is, being "on the floor" or "down" has nothing whatsoever to do with whether a player was in the act of shooting (unless it was after the shot was released.)

maven Wed Feb 20, 2013 02:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 880679)
No, just say "before the shot" or "no shot" if there's any question.
"No shot" is superior, IMO: the foul can be "before the shot" and still result in (non-bonus) FT's. If the foul made the ball dead, then there was no shot.

"No shot" also covers the case in which it would have been a shooting foul, except the ball became dead when the fouled player traveled before releasing the ball on a try.


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