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-   -   Toss to start the game (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/94003-toss-start-game.html)

OKREF Tue Feb 12, 2013 07:26pm
Toss to start the game
 
Ace and Dan 12.08.10 - YouTube


Check out the toss and the commentary.

JugglingReferee Tue Feb 12, 2013 07:49pm
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Welpe Tue Feb 12, 2013 09:29pm
A wee bit high. Fast 10 count too. I would love to be in that unit though with their focus on official development.

AremRed Tue Feb 12, 2013 09:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 878897)
A wee bit high. Fast 10 count too. I would love to be in that unit though with their focus on official development.
I thought so too, so I tested it out. According to the counts of the official that you can see in the video (he is not visible the first two seconds), there are 7. I turned off the sound and counted myself, at my speed. I had 8. I used a stopwatch, and got 10 seconds when the official blew his whistle.

deecee Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:17pm
his count was pretty on point I would have been about a half second sooner than him but other than that his count was close to perfect. Also that toss was rough, that's not a good way to toss IMO.

stiffler3492 Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:41pm
What about the travel at about 1:10?

Rich Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:47pm
Say what you want -- it was between 11 and 12 seconds from the time white got possession in the backcourt until the violation was called. I used the YouTube clock, though, no stopwatch.

Rich Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 878902)
his count was pretty on point I would have been about a half second sooner than him but other than that his count was close to perfect. Also that toss was rough, that's not a good way to toss IMO.
His toss was perfect if the players were 10 feet tall.

APG Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 878924)
His toss was perfect if the players were 10 feet tall.
I'm more impressed that, with him tossing it that high, that the ball went straight up and straight down.

Scuba_ref Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:39am
Flo was in the house!

bob jenkins Wed Feb 13, 2013 09:09am
Since 90% of the tosses are not high enough, I'd rather see this type.

Welpe Wed Feb 13, 2013 09:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanwestref (Post 878900)
I thought so too, so I tested it out.
I did too. Maybe my count is just slow. ;)

jTheUmp Wed Feb 13, 2013 09:40am
Travel at 1:10? Doesn't look like it to me. Pivot foot is the right foot, which never comes off the floor.

Rich Wed Feb 13, 2013 09:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 878959)
Since 90% of the tosses are not high enough, I'd rather see this type.
I like how the people taping couldn't stop laughing after the toss.

Rich Wed Feb 13, 2013 09:53am
With the NCAA telling its officials to use a stop-clock mechanic on OOB calls, there's no reason a JV HS official doesn't do that automatically.

I have no idea who this association gives the OOB call to above the FT line in the frontcourt. I'm still a fan of the L taking the line all the way down and working out there when the ball is near the line. The L didn't move -- I have no idea if he's expected to there.

6:49, L signals a 3 attempt, doesn't signal the make.

Not a whole lot to look at in this 8:30 of basketball, really.

Tio Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:19am
The toss was too high...

The only other comment I would have is that starting so low will be problematic for bigger players. They will have an easier opportunity to steal the toss.

stripes2255 Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 879003)
With the NCAA telling its officials to use a stop-clock mechanic on OOB calls, there's no reason a JV HS official doesn't do that automatically.

I have no idea who this association gives the OOB call to above the FT line in the frontcourt. I'm still a fan of the L taking the line all the way down and working out there when the ball is near the line. The L didn't move -- I have no idea if he's expected to there..
Concerning the stop-clock mechanic, this year Oregon adopted the optional directional point without the open hand in the air first. Ironically, the same year NCAA emphasizes their officials to use more of the stop clock mechanic?!(Side note, I don't believe this game is played in Oregon)

OOB call-every year our association swaps officials with a neighboring association during preseason tournaments one weekend to strengthen numbers, work with other officials, teams, etc. The neighboring assoc. calls OOB lines in front court, T's primary much like you see on this video. I have considered the pro's and con's to this but am interested in what others think?

Welpe Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:21am
The other thing I failed to mention, I was guilty of doing this same thing my first year or two. Nice, straight tosses but way too high. Only once or twice did my partner blow it back and there was one I had to blow back myself.

I've gotten quite a bit better at tossing since then but it's still not my favorite.

Adam Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 879022)
The other thing I failed to mention, I was guilty of doing this same thing my first year or two. Nice, straight tosses but way too high. Only once or twice did my partner blow it back and there was one I had to blow back myself.

I've gotten quite a bit better at tossing since then but it's still not my favorite.
Why would you blow a toss back for being too high?

JetMetFan Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:26am
Is there some rule that when the guy who threw the toss is in the L he absolutely cannot move from his spot alnog the endline? It looks like he's set in cement.

I'm also trying to figure out why there was a shot-clock reset at the 3:54 mark.

All this for these guys and a shot clock, too. I can only imagine the fun that causes during a JV game.

My hope is some nice, veteran official shows them this clip and goes over the myriad of areas where they need improvement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 879025)
Why would you blow a toss back for being too high?
Probably because 3.2.1B-4 in the Officials' Manual says the R should "toss the ball slightly higher than either person can jump." Neither of those kids looks like a kangaroo so I'd be inclined to call that toss back :)

Welpe Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 879025)
Why would you blow a toss back for being too high?
That's how I was taught. If it's too high, blow it and re do it.

The mechanics manual simply says if the "toss is poor" with no further definition.

Also, I accidentally edited your post when I meant to reply to it, sorry.

Rich Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 879027)
Is there some rule that when the guy who threw the toss is in the L he absolutely cannot move from his spot alnog the endline? It looks like he's set in cement.

I'm also trying to figure out why there was a shot-clock reset at the 3:54 mark.

All this for these guys and a shot clock, too. I can only imagine the fun that causes during a JV game.

My hope is some nice, veteran official shows them this clip and goes over the myriad of areas where they need improvement.
To be fair, these are JV guys and I'm guessing they are newer officials. Seems like getting video is the first step to improving some things. Court movement being one of the bigger ones, I'll agree.

riverfalls57 Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:53am
First time I have ever seen that mascot.

stiffler3492 Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverfalls57 (Post 879044)
First time I have ever seen that mascot.
Me too.

Camron Rust Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 879025)
Why would you blow a toss back for being too high?
Only if it hits the ceiling.

biz Wed Feb 13, 2013 02:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 879003)

6:49, L signals a 3 attempt, doesn't signal the make.
In these parts (MA) we were told 2 or 3 years ago that the L shouldn't signal a successful 3 point FG. Our mechanic is to signal the 3 pt FG attempt if it's in your primary. If the T sees the signal he/she should mirror. If the try is successful only the T should give the "touchdown" signal and the L should only signal if the T didn't see the L's original signal

Raymond Wed Feb 13, 2013 02:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by biz (Post 879137)
In these parts (MA) we were told 2 or 3 years ago that the L shouldn't signal a successful 3 point FG. Our mechanic is to signal the 3 pt FG attempt if it's in your primary. If the T sees the signal he/she should mirror. If the try is successful only the T should give the "touchdown" signal and the L should only signal if the T didn't see the L's original signal
So they think it's better for the Lead to search to see if the T gives a touchdown signal rather than just the Lead just signalling it from the get go?

Makes no sense to me.

biz Wed Feb 13, 2013 03:01pm
I don't love it either, but the thinking was that the table was missing the signal from the lead.

In practice, what usually happens is that the L holds the 3 point attempt signal until the T makes eye contact after the successful hoop which usually happens pretty quickly.

Raymond Wed Feb 13, 2013 03:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by biz (Post 879148)
I don't love it either, but the thinking was that the table was missing the signal from the lead.

In practice, what usually happens is that the L holds the 3 point attempt signal until the T makes eye contact after the successful hoop which usually happens pretty quickly.
I don't see why it would be any different than in 3-man. The Primary gives prelim and touchdown and the C or T mirrors the touchdown and the Lead never mirrors.

So in 2-man, primary prelims & touchdowns. Trail mirrors touchdown, Lead never mirrors touchdown.

AremRed Wed Feb 13, 2013 03:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 879152)
I don't see why it would be any different than in 3-man. The Primary gives prelim and touchdown and the C or T mirrors the touchdown and the Lead never mirrors.

So in 2-man, primary prelims & touchdowns. Trail mirrors touchdown, Lead never mirrors touchdown.
Yeah, but in 3-man, the Lead never signals anything involving a three-point try. In 2-man, the Lead does.

I posted something about this a few weeks ago. As the Trail, I need the Lead to signal three-point trys and makes in his PCA. If the Trail is the only person doing the touchdown signal, and the three-point try was attempted 40 feet from where he is standing, it looks weak. I say don't try to streamline 2-man and 3-man to make them as similar as possible. They are different enough already, keep them that way.

Also, I don't know where these "teachings" come from. My state uses the NFHS book. I do not care if I am told to do something different, I am going to follow the book.

Raymond Wed Feb 13, 2013 03:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanwestref (Post 879160)
Yeah, but in 3-man, the Lead never signals anything involving a three-point try. In 2-man, the Lead does.

....
There is no "yeah, but" to what I posted. In 3-man the Lead is not the primary on 3-point shots, I said the primary prelims and the Trail mirrors the touchdown and I said he Lead never mirrors. So in 2-man or 3-man the Trail mirrors the touchdown. In 2-man or 3-man the primary gives prelim and touchdown. In 2-man or 3-man the Lead doesn't mirror the touchdown.

Also, the Lead does prelim in 3-man on fast breaks when the Trail hasn't made it up the court.

Texref Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:41pm
In both 2 and 3 person, I will signal attempt but not make as the lead. In 3 person, I'm only doing this in transition and would expect both C and T to pick it up, if they don't, TOUCHDOWN goes up. In 2 person, I pregame that I will not give successful signal on 3-pt try. If for some reason, my T misses the attempt, then I will. No big deal either way.

Sharpshooternes Thu Feb 14, 2013 01:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 878897)
A wee bit high. Fast 10 count too. I would love to be in that unit though with their focus on official development.
Ball rebounded at 15 seconds on the video timer. Whistle at 25 or 26. Good ten second call. Although he didn't start his count until two seconds after, I think he realized ( which I do sometimes too) that he should have been counting and when he did his first arm motion he started at 3 instead of 1.

Sharpshooternes Thu Feb 14, 2013 01:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tio (Post 879019)
The toss was too high...

The only other comment I would have is that starting so low will be problematic for bigger players. They will have an easier opportunity to steal the toss.
It is actually a violation to touch the jump ball before it reaches its peak height.

Sharpshooternes Thu Feb 14, 2013 01:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by adam (Post 879025)
why would you blow a toss back for being too high?
+1

Sharpshooternes Thu Feb 14, 2013 01:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 879027)
Is there some rule that when the guy who threw the toss is in the L he absolutely cannot move from his spot alnog the endline? It looks like he's set in cement.

I'm also trying to figure out why there was a shot-clock reset at the 3:54 mark.

All this for these guys and a shot clock, too. I can only imagine the fun that causes during a JV game.

My hope is some nice, veteran official shows them this clip and goes over the myriad of areas where they need improvement.



Probably because 3.2.1B-4 in the Officials' Manual says the R should "toss the ball slightly higher than either person can jump." Neither of those kids looks like a kangaroo so I'd be inclined to call that toss back :)
Does anyone use the mechanic in the book that says if the ball is tipped to the backcourt the non tossing official will become trail and the tosser will become lead? Just curious. We don't. Non tosser always becomes lead.

Sharpshooternes Thu Feb 14, 2013 01:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanwestref (Post 879160)
Yeah, but in 3-man, the Lead never signals anything involving a three-point try. In 2-man, the Lead does.

I posted something about this a few weeks ago. As the Trail, I need the Lead to signal three-point trys and makes in his PCA. If the Trail is the only person doing the touchdown signal, and the three-point try was attempted 40 feet from where he is standing, it looks weak. I say don't try to streamline 2-man and 3-man to make them as similar as possible. They are different enough already, keep them that way.

Also, I don't know where these "teachings" come from. My state uses the NFHS book. I do not care if I am told to do something different, I am going to follow the book.
Yeah it is on page 33 of the officials manual. Lead marks and touchdowns a 3 point attempt and/or make in their primary and trail mirrors. Lead never mirrors trail for this.

Adam Thu Feb 14, 2013 01:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 879028)
That's how I was taught. If it's too high, blow it and re do it.

The mechanics manual simply says if the "toss is poor" with no further definition.

Also, I accidentally edited your post when I meant to reply to it, sorry.
Please disregard that nasty private complaint, then. The only toss I'll ever blow dead is the one that is angled so as to be unfair to one player.

Camron Rust Thu Feb 14, 2013 02:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes (Post 879293)
Does anyone use the mechanic in the book that says if the ball is tipped to the backcourt the non tossing official will become trail and the tosser will become lead? Just curious. We don't. Non tosser always becomes lead.
Yep...did it last night.

There are times when it makes sense and to do. Otherwise, it really makes it unnecessarily difficult for both officials to cover the play correctly.

Sharpshooternes Thu Feb 14, 2013 03:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 879309)
Yep...did it last night.

There are times when it makes sense and to do otherwise in such cases really makes it unnecessarily difficult for both officials to cover the play correctly.
Cool. I have not tried it but it makes sense. I will make this part of my game next season.

OKREF Thu Feb 14, 2013 07:57am
In this part of Rome. The lead will signal a 3 for the preliminary, but never give the TD. In 3the man the lead never does.

Raymond Thu Feb 14, 2013 08:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 879327)
In this part of Rome. The lead will signal a 3 for the preliminary, but never give the TD. In 3the man the lead never does.
There is no debate about 3-man.

Just wondering why in 2-man the official who has the shot come from his PCA would not signal the touchdown. When I'm working 2-man I don't care if the trail mirrors me or not b/c I'm signalling the touchdown like I'm supposed to.

bob jenkins Thu Feb 14, 2013 08:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes (Post 879293)
Does anyone use the mechanic in the book that says if the ball is tipped to the backcourt the non tossing official will become trail and the tosser will become lead? Just curious. We don't. Non tosser always becomes lead.
The farther back the ball goes, the more likely the non-tosser becomes T.

The more pressure, the more likely the non-tosser becomes T.

Neither of those is very common, that's why the non-tosser is most often L. But, making a blanket statement like you did (or do in your area) is just wrong, imo.

Welpe Thu Feb 14, 2013 09:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes (Post 879292)
+1
Read through the thread instead of rapid firing responses. :)


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