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-   -   Louisville @ Notre Dame, Rich's Video Request #2 (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/93987-louisville-notre-dame-richs-video-request-2-a.html)

JetMetFan Mon Feb 11, 2013 07:25pm

Louisville @ Notre Dame, Rich's Video Request #2
 
Also, about 5:15 - - how many times did ND travel in that sequence?

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/SqoXWzg2N7A?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

srp6977 Mon Feb 11, 2013 07:26pm

Three

jump stop Mon Feb 11, 2013 09:34pm

one

OKREF Mon Feb 11, 2013 09:45pm

Three. Twice by one player.

APG Mon Feb 11, 2013 09:46pm

I've got nothing here

VaTerp Mon Feb 11, 2013 09:52pm

One travel by #0 though it's close depending on when you consider the gather and if the left foot is the pivot foot.

What other travel are people seeing?

OKREF Mon Feb 11, 2013 09:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by VaTerp (Post 878588)
One travel by #0 though it's close depending on when you consider the gather and if the left foot is the pivot foot.

What other travel are people seeing?

0 travels once when he first gets the ball. He travels again flashing across he lane, that one is easy. 1 tracks down the ball, gathers the ball with left foot on the floor, steps with right, then picks up the left and returns before passing.

VaTerp Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 878590)
0 travels once when he first gets the ball. He travels again flashing across he lane, that one is easy. 1 tracks down the ball, gathers the ball with left foot on the floor, steps with right, then picks up the left and returns before passing.

Watching again #0 does travel when he gets the ball, was distracted by ESP ticker.

No way in real time or even on replay I'm calling that travel on #1 though.

Rich Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by VaTerp (Post 878595)
Watching again #0 does travel when he gets the ball, was distracted by ESP ticker.

No way in real time or even on replay I'm calling that travel on #1 though.

I was referring to 2 travels on 0. I don't know how the flash across the lane can be considered anything other than a travel when that last foot (which has to be the pivot foot) comes back to the floor again.

Nothing on #1.

VaTerp Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 878600)
I was referring to 2 travels on 0. I don't know how the flash across the lane can be considered anything other than a travel when that last foot (which has to be the pivot foot) comes back to the floor again.

Nothing on #1.

Agreed. 0 travels twice and would think they would have gotten the second one especially.

BLydic Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by APG (Post 878585)
I've got nothing here

LOL!! There has to be one of these you would call.

BLydic Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 878600)
I was referring to 2 travels on 0.

Two travels on 0? I don't know ... I can see one, but the other would be considered ticky tacky at this level. :)

APG Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLydic (Post 878608)
LOL!! There has to be one of these you would call.

In real time? Maybe the second play by 0...probably not. That's the only play in the clip that's worth a question in my opinion. I also wouldn't expect that to be called in a D-I game.

Sharpshooternes Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLydic (Post 878609)
Two travels on 0? I don't know ... I can see one, but the other would be considered ticky tacky at this level. :)

I had three although I definately wouldn't hve called the first one by 0,(and you can;t see it very well anyway because of the score on the screen.) Number 1 at the top of the screen does lift his pivot and put it back down.

BLydic Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by APG (Post 878611)
In real time? Maybe the second play by 0...probably not. That's the only play in the clip that's worth a question in my opinion. I also wouldn't expect that to be called in a D-I game.

I'll take a maybe :D

I'm liking what you, Rich, Rut and others are saying, the travel call is the toughest ... hope there's more video throughout the rest of the season to learn from.

twocentsworth Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:31pm

ZERO travels in that sequence.....they didn't call any and I wouldn't call any.

Rich Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLydic (Post 878609)
Two travels on 0? I don't know ... I can see one, but the other would be considered ticky tacky at this level. :)

I didn't say I'd call the first one -- I wouldn't. I don't go looking for travels that aren't obvious.

But the second one? I think that falls into the obvious category, at least for me it does.

OKREF Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 878619)
I didn't say I'd call the first one -- I wouldn't. I don't go looking for travels that aren't obvious.

But the second one? I think that falls into the obvious category, at least for me it does.

I'm not saying I woul call the first one either, or the one on #1, but the second one by 0 has to be called.

Rich Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 878624)
I'm not saying I woul call the first one either, or the one on #1, but the second one by 0 has to be called.

I don't think #1 traveled.

OKREF Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 878627)
I don't think #1 traveled.

Look at it again. Clearly has ball with left foot one the floor, steps with right, picks up left and returns it to floor.

Rich Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 878629)
Look at it again.

If you're talking about the toe of #1's pivot foot *maybe* coming off the floor and coming back down, that's not a nit I'd even entertain picking.

Welpe Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 878590)
0 travels once when he first gets the ball.

I'm not seeing that. On slow motion, he's got control after his feet are done moving.

Raymond Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by APG (Post 878611)
In real time? Maybe the second play by 0...probably not. That's the only play in the clip that's worth a question in my opinion. I also wouldn't expect that to be called in a D-I game.

The 2nd ND player most definitely travelled and it is something that should be called in an NCAA game. It was missed.

Welpe Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 878629)
Look at it again. Clearly has ball with left foot one the floor, steps with right, picks up left and returns it to floor.

I don't think you can say that, his body is between the camera and the ball and it's not clear when he actually possesses it. I'm with Rich, too small of a nit to try and pick.

OKREF Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 878630)
If you're talking about the toe of #1's pivot foot *maybe* coming off the floor and coming back down, that's not a nit I'd even entertain picking.

Didn't say I would either. But IMO his whole foot comes off the floor. Just answering the OP for how many I see.

APG Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 878632)
The 2nd ND player most definitely travelled and it is something that should be called in an NCAA game. It was missed.

I see that type of play passed on quite often at that level.

Raymond Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by APG (Post 878640)
I see that type of play passed on quite often at that level.

Then you need to view some more of John Adams videos b/c he doesn't like these travels being missed.

My crew had a play where a player, who already had a FF1 for an elbow foul, picked up his 5th foul in frustration to missing a lay-up in which there was marginal contact. After our supervisor confirmed our no-call on the missed lay-up his next comment was that the situation would have been avoided if we had called the travel on said player when he made his move to the basket.

So college supervisors are looking if we pick up travels. And so is John Adams. The 2nd ND player very obviously travelled and the fact that is was missed isn't reason to say it's not a call that's made at that level. It just may mean that travelling calls will be a POE again next season.

APG Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 878647)
Then you need to view some more of John Adams videos b/c he doesn't like these travels being missed.

My crew had a play where a player, who already had a FF1 for an elbow foul, picked up his 5th foul in frustration to missing a lay-up in which there was marginal contact. After our supervisor confirmed our no-call on the missed lay-up his next comment was that the situation would have been avoided if we had called the travel on said player when he made his move to the basket.

So college supervisors are looking if we pick up travels. And so is John Adams. The 2nd ND player very obviously travelled and the fact that is was missed isn't reason to say it's not a call that's made at that level. It just may means that travelling calls will be a POE again next season.

Well there's a disconnect somewhere...because I'd be more shocked seeing a whistle on this play than not.

zm1283 Tue Feb 12, 2013 09:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 878616)
ZERO travels in that sequence.....they didn't call any and I wouldn't call any.

You're nuts then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 878632)
The 2nd ND player most definitely travelled and it is something that should be called in an NCAA game. It was missed.

Exactly.

If #0 for ND isn't going to be called for a travel going across the lane (When his pivot foot is lifted and returns to the floor not once, but twice), we should just delete the traveling violation out of the NCAA rules book. That is about as obviously as it gets. The others I can get with, it might have been ticky-tack to get those, but #0 clearly traveled.

fullor30 Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 878619)
I didn't say I'd call the first one -- I wouldn't. I don't go looking for travels that aren't obvious.

But the second one? I think that falls into the obvious category, at least for me it does.

Agreed.

It seems that non travel calls which are business as usual in NBA have seeped into the college game and are as about frequent as a three second call. First one I would pass on but two? C'mon.

jump stop Tue Feb 12, 2013 04:26pm

Technically Player #0 does travel when he goes across the lane :
He gathered the ball with one foot on floor(left foot) , jumped off of this foot, but did not land simultneously on 2 feet

This play is called a travel only about 1/100 times in a D1 game and rightfully so. Does anyone actually land simultaneously on 2 feet??? Did he gather with one foot on floor or gather with both feet in air (if so he doesn't have to land simultaneously).

I think the bottom line for D1 officials as far as the travel call goes is; if you are not 100% sure don't call it. You will not see a call on the jump stop for not landing simultaneously.

OKREF Tue Feb 12, 2013 04:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jump stop (Post 878856)
Technically Player #0 does travel when he goes across the lane :
He gathered the ball with one foot on floor(left foot) , jumped off of this foot, but did not land simultneously on 2 feet

This play is called a travel only about 1/100 times in a D1 game and rightfully so. Does anyone actually land simultaneously on 2 feet??? Did he gather with one foot on floor or gather with both feet in air (if so he doesn't have to land simultaneously).

I think the bottom line for D1 officials as far as the travel call goes is; if you are not 100% sure don't call it. You will not see a call on the jump stop for not landing simultaneously.

Yes, it is a travel. I know our state association has made it very clear. Unless you land simultaneously on a jump stop it is a travel and should be called as such.

Rich Tue Feb 12, 2013 04:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jump stop (Post 878856)
Technically Player #0 does travel when he goes across the lane :
He gathered the ball with one foot on floor(left foot) , jumped off of this foot, but did not land simultneously on 2 feet

This play is called a travel only about 1/100 times in a D1 game and rightfully so. Does anyone actually land simultaneously on 2 feet??? Did he gather with one foot on floor or gather with both feet in air (if so he doesn't have to land simultaneously).

I think the bottom line for D1 officials as far as the travel call goes is; if you are not 100% sure don't call it. You will not see a call on the jump stop for not landing simultaneously.

Almost simultaneously is far different from what we see in this video.

VaTerp Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jump stop (Post 878856)
Technically Player #0 does travel when he goes across the lane :
He gathered the ball with one foot on floor(left foot) , jumped off of this foot, but did not land simultneously on 2 feet

This play is called a travel only about 1/100 times in a D1 game and rightfully so. Does anyone actually land simultaneously on 2 feet??? Did he gather with one foot on floor or gather with both feet in air (if so he doesn't have to land simultaneously).

I think the bottom line for D1 officials as far as the travel call goes is; if you are not 100% sure don't call it. You will not see a call on the jump stop for not landing simultaneously.

I think about 1/100 of this post is NOT BS.

What does both this play have to do with a jump stop?

fullor30 Wed Feb 13, 2013 01:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by VaTerp (Post 878919)
I think about 1/100 of this post is NOT BS.

What does both this play have to do with a jump stop?


Big fat Zero

jump stop Wed Feb 13, 2013 08:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by VaTerp (Post 878919)
I think about 1/100 of this post is NOT BS.

What does both this play have to do with a jump stop?

In my opinion you could use 2 rules to interpret the violation:

1st). Sec44 Art2.b.

. . . A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:
.
If one foot is on the floor:
It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

2nd) Art. 3. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:
On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch shall be the pivot foot; When one foot is on the playing court:


You are correct the word "jump stop" is not in the rule book but this is the move "0" seems to be attempting rather than your typical "layup"
So , as far as breaking the rules he either: 1)didn't land simultaneously or 2) picked up pivot foot and returned to floor before passing or shooting

The real point is why didn't they call a violation: obviously these are 3 primetime officials or they wouldn't be working this game. None called a violation. So I try to get into the mind of why these high level officials only call this move a travel 1/100 times. I think it is because they question when the ball was gathered and don't split hairs on landing simultaneously.

So, like it or not , they typically let this go. Peyton Sive from Louisville will make this move 5 or 6 times a game and rarely does he land simultaneously.

OKREF Wed Feb 13, 2013 09:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jump stop (Post 878954)
In my opinion you could use 2 rules to interpret the violation:

1st). Sec44 Art2.b.

. . . A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:
.
If one foot is on the floor:
It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

2nd) Art. 3. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:
On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch shall be the pivot foot; When one foot is on the playing court:


You are correct the word "jump stop" is not in the rule book but this is the move "0" seems to be attempting rather than your typical "layup"
So , as far as breaking the rules he either: 1)didn't land simultaneously or 2) picked up pivot foot and returned to floor before passing or shooting

The real point is why didn't they call a violation: obviously these are 3 primetime officials or they wouldn't be working this game. None called a violation. So I try to get into the mind of why these high level officials only call this move a travel 1/100 times. I think it is because they question when the ball was gathered and don't split hairs on landing simultaneously.

So, like it or not , they typically let this go. Peyton Sive from Louisville will make this move 5 or 6 times a game and rarely does he land simultaneously.

Our association has told us that no matter when the ball is gathered, either before jumping or after jumping, it is a travel if they don't land simultaneously.

Raymond Wed Feb 13, 2013 09:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 878960)
Our association has told us that no matter when the ball is gathered, either before jumping or after jumping, it is a travel if they don't land simultaneously.

That is incorrect. If you gather in the air you have no pivot foot. The first to touch the ground becomes your pivot foot.

Jesse James Wed Feb 13, 2013 09:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 878960)
Our association has told us that no matter when the ball is gathered, either before jumping or after jumping, it is a travel if they don't land simultaneously.

If this is true, your association is horrifically misguided.

OKREF Wed Feb 13, 2013 09:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse James (Post 878964)
If this is true, your association is horrifically misguided.

We've been told that they may pivot, if gathering the ball after jumping, but they must land at the same time. Just saying.

Raymond Wed Feb 13, 2013 09:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 878966)
We've been told that they may pivot, if gathering the ball after jumping, but they must land at the same time. Just saying.

Again, that is incorrect. Does this also apply to rebounders?

Raymond Wed Feb 13, 2013 09:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 878960)
Our association has told us that no matter when the ball is gathered, either before jumping or after jumping, it is a travel if they don't land simultaneously.

If they gather with foot on the ground they can land on one foot and jump off that foot or on 2 feet simultaneously.

You guys need to scrap your jump stop training and start all over. :)

Texref Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by APG (Post 878611)
In real time? Maybe the second play by 0...probably not. That's the only play in the clip that's worth a question in my opinion. I also wouldn't expect that to be called in a D-I game.

Agree completely.


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