0 and 00 on the roster
 

Have been having this running discussion with a pretty rules astute guy (nothing like you guys on this forum) about a team having both 0 and 00 on the roster.

His position is: If you discover this situation at the 12 minutes mark of the pre-game warmup then you can change it without penalty. Pretty straight forward. But, what if the coach does not want to make a change AND wants both to be on the roster? He thinks this becomes a technical foul at the 9:59 mark?

I've read in the interps posted by Nevada and it is very specific if the sitaution is discovered at the 8 minutes mark and even after the game has started. No penalty if the second player doesn't participate. Correct? But, the interp doesn't address my question:

1. Is there a penalty to even have them both on the roster and we have discovered the situation before the 10 minutes mark of the pregame warmup?
2. Forget about 0 and 00, same question for any other illegal number -can it be on the roster without penalty?

From An Article That I Never Published ...
 

Technical fouls for illegal uniforms (including illegal numbers) are not charged to the team, but are charged directly to the head coach. If a team member participates as a player while wearing an illegal uniform, then a direct technical foul is charged to the head coach, who will lose the coaching box privilege for the remainder of the game. This infraction is penalized when discovered, and the team member with the illegal uniform may participate without further penalty and is not required to change the number. A maximum of one technical foul shall be charged directly to the head coach regardless of the number of offenders.

Billy,

So, no penalty for having both on the roster?

2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 2: A team has members with No. 0 and No. 00 listed in the scorebook and it is discovered (a) with 14 minutes on the clock prior to the game, (b) with 8 minutes on the clock prior to the game or (c) after the game starts. RULING: In (a), changes can be made without penalty. In (b), if a number is changed in the scorebook, a team technical is charged. The offended team is awarded two free throws and a throw-in at the division line to begin the game. The arrow is toward the offending team. If no changes are made to the scorebook, no infraction has occurred. In (c), after the game starts, there is no infraction if only one of the team members (No. 0 or No. 00) participates. If the second team member wishes to participate, the result is an illegal number when "discovered." The penalty is a direct technical foul on the head coach for an illegal uniform. Two free throws and a division line throw-in for the offended team and loss of coaching box privileges for the offending coach. The second team member (with the illegal uniform number) may participate without further penalty and is NOT required to change his/her number. Another possibility exists after the game starts when one of the team members wants to change his/her number prior to participating. The result is a team technical foul (no loss of coaching box) for changing the scorebook. COMMENT: No team should have both No. 0 and No. 00 on its regular roster. The infraction is likely due to bringing a player up or down a level. Therefore, it is possible the team has access to other legal uniforms to replace a uniform with an illegal number. (3-4-3d; 10-1-2; 10-5-4)

There's never (?) a penalty to discover and correct prior to the 10-minute mark.

First, 0 and 00 are not illegal numbers. Second, see 3.4.3B (last year's book, just in case the specific reference has changed)

Just My Opinion ...
 

Only if they play, and a maximum of one technical foul charged to the head coach if both play.

(Later Edit: If 0 and 00 are considered illegal, it considered identical, see below)

Mickey Mantle ???
 

*3.4.3 SITUATION B: A7 reports to the official scorer to enter the game wearing
a jersey with the No. 7, which is the number listed in the scorebook. A7 (a)
enters the game and participates; (b) changes into a legal jersey and enters the
game later; or (c) goes back to the bench and never enters the game. RULING: In
(a), a direct technical foul is charged to the Team A head coach for the illegal uniform.
Team B is awarded two free throws and a division-line throw-in, and the
Team A head coach loses his/her coaching-box privileges. In (b), a number must
be changed in the scorebook. Therefore, Team A is assessed a team technical foul
when the change occurs, but the coach does not lose his/her coaching-box privileges.
In (c), no penalty is assessed when the player never enters the game and
the scorebook is unaltered. (10-1-2c; 10-5-4)

Inquiring Minds Want to Know ???
 

NFHS 3-4: Each team member shall be numbered on the front and back of the team
jersey with plain Arabic numerals. The following numbers are legal: 0, 1, 2,
3, 4, 5, 00, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 30, 31, 32, 33,
34, 35, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55. A team member list
shall not have both numbers 0 and 00.

0 and 00? Illegal, or identical?

Identical Numbers ...
 

If a team has identical numbers on team members, and/or players, after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. This infraction is charged and penalized upon discovery of identical numbers. Only one team member may wear a given number; the other must change to a number not already in use before participating.

Neither (to have on the roster), or if only one plays.

Illegal (if they both play).

[QUOTE=bob jenkins;874527]There's never (?) a penalty to discover and correct prior to the 10-minute mark.

Bob,

I think what I meant to ask: If you discover before the 10 minutes mark and bring it to Coach's attention, is there a penalty if the coach wants both to remain on the roster?

[QUOTE=ronny mulkey;874536]Asked and answered.

There's no penalty to have both on the roster. There's no penalty if only one plays. There is a penalty if (and when) the second one enters the game.

Treat Both, And Only Both, As An Illegal Number ...
 

Regarding 0 and 00:

Penalty:

Technical fouls for illegal uniforms (including illegal numbers) are not charged to the team, but are charged directly to the head coach. If a team member participates as a player while wearing an illegal uniform, then a direct technical foul is charged to the head coach, who will lose the coaching box privilege for the remainder of the game. This infraction is penalized when discovered, and the team member with the illegal uniform may participate without further penalty and is not required to change the number. A maximum of one technical foul shall be charged directly to the head coach regardless of the number of offenders.

[QUOTE=bob jenkins;874540]Actually, bob, it is illegal to have both 0 and 00 listed on the roster whether they play or not. They are considered to be "identical numbers". See 3-2-2e.

This would be an administrative T as the uniforms themselves are legal but the listing in the book with both legal numbers is not legal.

If either of the players wanted to play, one would need to change and there would be no further penalty as the single administrative T would have already been incurred.

I don't get this reading 3-2-2e. Does something somewhere else specifically say that 0 and 00 are considered identical numbers?

[QUOTE=Camron Rust;874560]See the interp in post #4:

[QUOTE=Camron Rust;874560]I would have to disagree that they are considered identical numbers. I believe the intent to not have both on the roster is to eliminate possible confusion when reporting fouls. I would say illegal, yes. Identical, no. If two players have identical numbers, someone has to get a different number. But, both 0 and 00 can both play, at the expense of a T.

Not identical
 

0 and 00 are no more identical than 1/11, 2/22, 3/33, 4/44, and 5,55. As has been answered, only penalty in the OP is if both team members participate. Why, bc the rule book specifies that 0/00 can't play without a penalty. Nothing to have them both listed.

[QUOTE=PG_Ref;874569]Yes, they are considered identical...that is the resaon that there is an issue to begin with...maybe a special case of identical, but still identical. Many electronic statistical programs are based on player number and don't/can't separate 0 from 00. 0 and 00 are not like 1 and 11 but are like 1 and 01. Those are identical numbers. If you don't think they are identical, subtract one from the other and see what you get....you don't get the same result with 1 and 11.

I stand corrected in how the NFHS wants them handled, but the basis behind the restriction is that they are identical to record keeping systems.

Illegal or Identical? That is the question.
 

Both numbers are legal. They are not identical. In the Ancient Days it was legal to have players wearing both numbers and playing at the same time: "zero" or "double zero". When the first computer programs for basketball statistics were first written, the software could not differentiate between the uniform number "0" and the uniform number "00" therefore the rule change by both the NFHS and NCAA. They are both legal numbers, they are not identical numbers, but a team must just between "0" and "00".

MTD, Sr.

Identical ??? I Don't Think So ...
 

Try telling that to the croupier at the Venetian Resort and Casino in Las Vegas when you have $1000.00 on 0 and the ball falls into 00 on the roulette wheel.

Are 2 and 02 identical? Yes, yes they are. So are 0 and 00. Regardless, you can't have both.

BBR calls 0 violations in the first half.
Adam calls 00 violations in the first half.
BBR and Adam have called the identical number of violations in the first half.

And, we've hide a pretty good first half. :)

+1,000

MTD, Sr.

Adam:

My post was not to join the discussion but to give the history behind rule. As far as I am concerned NFHS 2008-09 Basketball Rules Interpretations Situation 2 covers the OP.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Everybody should remember that there are only ten numerals: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9, but there are an infinite number of numbers.

Infinite numbers but may ways to express the same number.

1 = 01 = 001 = 0001 = 00001. It doesn't matter how many 0's you add in front if it, it is still the "number" 1.

Now, if you want to talk about strings, they're certainly not the same but players are identified by numbers, not strings.