The Official Forum - Fouled Out Substitution During Free Throw

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 873886)

Love this logic.

If you've screwed up, you should let people yell at you longer. Nevermind that you don't know, at the time, that you've screwed up.

MD,
Perhaps now that you have heard from multiple members of this Board, you have softened your stand or perhaps not.

If you make a difficult decision (block/charge, goaltending call, etc. in basketball or call a foul that you might have called differently if given a different angle, etc. in any sport), I believe that you need to have a somewhat more sympathetic ear. NOTE: I did NOT imply that you are going to allow a coach to drop multiple F-Bombs or come running 10 feet onto the court or field. I merely said, "more sympathetic."

When we kick a rule -- and the original post appeared to confirm this -- yes, we should be more sympathetic to a coaches complaints. We are not officiating at the opera, this is an athletic competition where jobs can be at stake. We will make errors in judgment as we will kick a rule every once in a while. Giving a coach a little leeway -- there are limits -- in these situations is prudent game management in my opinion.

I think screwing up a rule and allowing a coach to "vent" are two different things from my point of view. And even what that is and how it takes place is up to the official the coach is dealing with. I agree in giving a coach a little rope when we kick a rule, but that rope might not be the same length with another official. I have never been the guy that Ts someone for a "stomp" or a "wave" but I know officials that will call those no matter when those actions take place. Again the coach needs to find a better way to get their point across so that they do not run into "That guy."

Peace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treeguy (Post 873818)

This was in the Detroit Free Press today.

The Mustangs were ahead, 57-52, with 35 seconds left in overtime when Marian's Kamry Peake was fouled, went to the free-throw line and sank the first of two free throws.

However, Divine Child coach Mary Laney got the attention of an official and said the substitute for her player who had fouled out had not been brought into the game when Peake made the free throw.

The official explained to Marian coach Mary Cicerone that he had to take the point off the scoreboard and admit the substitute, then shoot the free throws.

There was just one problem with that: The sub had entered the game.

"He said the other official blew it because he didn't let her in the game," Cicerone said. "I said: 'But she was in the game, she was standing right here.' Of course, I said it a little more aggressive than that."

For emphasis, Cicerone stomped her right foot on the spot the substitute and the official were standing during the free throw. And that is when an official from across the court hit Cicerone with a technical foul.

"You're really going to give me a technical for your mistake?" Cicerone asked. "He said: 'Yes, I am.' He was embarrassed because he screwed up."

Comments?

The only thing I can think of was that the official called the T because he thought the coach was trying to show up the official(s)? If a coach leaves the box to walk to where the sub allegedly was waiting and stomps her foot hard for extra emphasis, I can see where that may be a problem. However, if the coach hadn't been a problem up to that point, I'm thinking some preventative officiating may have been better.

The first free throw should definitely have stood. I believe I read later in that article that he shooter ended up splitting the new pair of free throws and the point may have never been recorded/awarded. If so, that only makes a bad situation worse. :(

Ironically enough, my local association discussed free throw administration and procedures at our meeting this month. According to our trainer, it was one of the areas of concern he received recent feedback about. I'm curious if these officials are part of my association and, if so, if they attended the meeting.

I thought I posted this earlier, but I don't see it anywhere.

My takeaway from this is -- How did it happen?

Foul, we're shooting two. At some point, a substitute (the one in question) enters the game, but since we're shooting two, the only way A6 would've made it onto the floor was if the officials were properly notified it was A1's fifth foul, they notifed Coach A and allowed A6 to enter before the first FT. Right?

Did A6 just walk in off the bench and A1 leave the court in disgust/disappointment w/o any of the above actually taking place?

Not that I'd expect the Free Press to mention all this, since it's not of interest to the average reader, but I wish we knew more about the administration of all this.

If the administering official initiated the first FT w/o regard to any of this, when/how did A6 materialize on the floor?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODog (Post 874035)

Did A6 just walk in off the bench and A1 leave the court in disgust/disappointment w/o any of the above actually taking place?

This happens a lot, if you let it. Sometimes before you even know it.

Players and coaches, some of whom are very respectful of the substitution process, think it all goes out the window when a player fouls out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODog (Post 874035)

Did A6 just walk in off the bench and A1 leave the court in disgust/disappointment w/o any of the above actually taking place?

I had something similiar happen to me. Boys JV, (2) man crew (long story). Visitor team getting pounded 4 min. left. I am lead. Call B1 for block he and coach are both upset. B1's 5th foul. I do not get told this. As I am moving to table keeping eye on players Visiting coach calls all players over to bench. A1 is at free throw line while I advise table of foul. Partner is holding ball. I had already T'd V coach up earlier for ABS. I advise coach need players to line up. He states "I get 30 seconds, know the rule." I look at table and they ask if they should start the clock. I say yes. When coach made his statement I knew what I had missed. I gave him some rope but could have rang him up again. Still not sure how I missed B1 had 5 fouls or when sub came in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSturgell (Post 874046)

1) It's 20 seconds

2) If the sub was already in, then there's no extra time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSturgell (Post 874046)

I advise coach need players to line up. He states "I get 30 seconds, know the rule."

My old interpreter was a truly good guy on and off the court. He was not a hot head and have very little ego on the court. He'd never go out of his way to tell you about a big game that he did, although he did plenty of them. Anyway, he used to tell a story in which a coach had been difficult all night. He and his partner had tried to work with him, but he'd just been a jerk.

At one point, one of his player's fouls out. They inform the coach, and start the 30 seconds (yes, it was still 30 seconds back then). After the warning horn, my partner says, "We're gonna need a sub, Coach."

As you might guess, the coach snaps "I get my 30 seconds!"

To which, my interpreter replied simply, "Don't take 31. . ."

:)