First time to start the game with a technical
 

So my partner and I show up to a Men's freshman game to find the visiting team, in uniform there warming up. Home team players are also there warming up but in jeans and T shirts. Come to find out the coach was late and had all of the uniforms locked up and no one else had a key. Visiting team was a little miffed (rightfully so) as they had to get some of their players to an upper level game after this game finished. After talking with my partner we decided to charge the home team with a team technical for not providing a roster and starters to the scorekeeper prior to the 10 minute mark citing 10-1-1. We started the game with the FTs and V had the ball out of bounds with H having the possession arrow.

My question is if we should have also charged a second technical for 10-1-5

A team shall not:

Allow the game to develop into an actionless contest, this includes the following and similar acts:

a. When the clock is not running consuming a full minute through not being ready when it is time to start either half.

The game definitely started late. I figured using just article 1 would be enough to appease the visiting team and using article 5 was probably not in the spirit of the rule as the team couldn't be ready because of the coach. I wasn't going to not do anything because let's face it, this is HS ball and coaches and players should be on time and ready to go at tip off (or in this case for the tech FTs.) Anyone want to add their 2 cents on my handling of this situation? Thanks.

You could apply both.

You could also forfeit the game if the team continues to be unready for play.

Many leagues have procedures that dictate how long a team is allowed before a forfeit is to be declared.

They delayed the start of the game by less than 10 minutes. Probably closer to 5. As soon as they came out of the locker room we got underway. They did not warm up in uniform at all. I will bring this up at our next association meeting to see what they have to say about it.

I wouldn't hit them twice. It's not the kids' fault their coach screwed up. 10-1-5 is more for a team being dressed and ready but making no move whatsoever to play.

The coach is part of the team, not separate from it. The penalty is a TEAM technical foul.
I agree with Camron.

Camron didn't say give the second T or don't give the second T, he said you could which is true. I'm just saying I wouldn't, that's all. If I felt it was done deliberately my answer could be different.

They are libel for both penalties. I would be surprised if I ever say this situation sub-varsity where both were applied.

Dont you think a lawsuit a bit harsh here?

Whoops. Liable. :p

"........at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time."



They are the home team. They could simply change the schedule. I've been at games a few times where the visiting team arrives late and the time was pushed back. I don't see why this is any different

At some point, the newly scheduled time can't be considered the scheduled starting time. Otherwise, I can generate a T on the other team every time by advancing the start time to less then 10 minutes from now when I've turned in my stuff but they haven't. (Or vice-versa to avoid being penalized ever.) I don't think that's a flexibility intended by the rule.

I agree -- generally, once the clock is running, the "scheduled time" is set.

The OP (coach with the key is late) might be an exception to the rule. Could mean that a "special report" (or whatever in your area) is called for, though.

Is the running clock the key? That seems kinda thin.

"Coach called.....he's running late. Don't put any time on the clock."

Sometimes you just have to officiate.

Agreed. I just don't see this situation as the intent and purpose of the rule here.

I am going to the opposing coach and letting him know he is running late
As soon as he gets here we will get started. Just don't envision giving a T here.

Me either.

If only most knew how hard it is sometimes for school systems to fill some of these lower level (frosh, middle school) coaching positions with capable, quality individuals. Most have to come from outside school system as teachers no longer want to coach, but hold on to their teaching positions. These guys (and ladies) may have time consuming jobs or businesses that are their main concern and livelihood. In addition, most of these lower level games are in afternoon, sometimes as early as 4pm, when conflicts with a real job can occur. Hearing a coach at this level is running late is certainly plausible to me and deserves the benefit of the doubt and a little slack.

And the same would apply to officials in these situations.

Tis true...but, if you are an official assigned to a game and you see, for instance, next Tuesday looming as a possible conflict, you probably come off that assignment to avoid any cluster___. A lone coach (some don't have assistants) might not have this luxury.

An official can have something come up at the last minute at his 9-to-5. One of my assignor's has a great deal of trouble filling in those 4:00 start times. Someone could say they are taking off from work at 3:00 and then get that unexpected phone call or meeting that holds them up.

Very observant of you. That is exactly what I said...and meant.

As for what I'd do, I'd probably be accommodating of a team in such a situation. I've started games late because the visiting team got lost or stuck in traffic...and we just started late with no T's. We set the pregame clock to 15-20 when they walked in the door and went from there.

Me, too -- and what I meant with my clock running example. The "exception" would be if someone started the clock without knowing that the coach would be late, or if the clock was started because "the coach was in the parking lot" (and the names didn't get in on time), etc.

Me three.

MTD, Sr.

Whether to penalize or not is not the issue that I have with your post. It is your reasoning. You essentially write don't penalize the kids because of the coach. I don't agree with that and am pointing out that they are all part of the team.
Now whether you actually penalize is a different story, but the rationale shouldn't be what you stated.

I have seen a similar situation at the V level in the past two years - one time the bus ran into a serious accident that was holding up traffic, the other was because of road construction.

I would have hard time explaining to any authorities (AD, assignor, etc.) that we started giving out technicals because of these situations. This is still high school basketball and we have to use some prudent judgement in these situations.

Now with that said, your situation is a little different and possibly could have been avoided, but I am always a little miffed when some officials forget about having compassion for the circumstances. Its one of the reasons for my signature quote.

I too think a bus crash or unexpected circumstances is warranted for some leniency. I'll be honest, I don't know why the coach was late, maybe I should have asked why before making a ruling. The opposing coach vocalized his concern about getting the underclassmen to another game across town. I felt like this was a fair decision, to charge a team tech for the book so that hopefully in the future this situation will be avoided. It didn't seem like an excessively harsh penalty and I am glad we also did not charge a second tech for not being ready to play. I feel like that was a good decision.

That might be his concern, but then he shouldn't have scheduled the games so close together. And, how does starting the game with a T make it end any sooner? If he's so concerned he can talk to the other coach and agree to shorten the game.

Your concern is only the current game.

I'd probably do the same, especially for a Freshman level game.

This

The start time is not the time you are given with your assignment -- it's the time the home team gives you when you on site. If the home team isn't on the floor ready to play, how is this your concern as an official? They aren't ready, you don't play.

(Side question: Was there a countdown timer on the clock? Was it counting down?)

If I whacked a team every time they weren't ready to go by the posted start time, I'd have to call technicals 80% of the time when the JV game ran over. While that might be fun, it certainly isn't the right thing to do.

I would never issue a T for this. If the team is on the court, dressed, and then refuses to come out - sure ... that's what the rule is for.

But for some sort of unforeseen pre-game snafu? No.

If it was protracted, I might inform my assignor of what happened, so they can be aware ... perhaps it's an ongoing problem at that school - who knows. But penalizing the team in the actual game? No.

(And as to the visitors trying to play players in 2 games at 2 sites? They have to be aware that there are a great number of things that could cause the game to end late (including simple things like overtime) - if they intend to have players play in 2 different places on the same day, they assume the risk.)

Well, varsity start times are usually scheduled variably. The start time is scheduled as 20/30 minutes after the end of the JV game. Yes, they give an estimate but that's not really the scheduled start time.

Not sure about that. The newspaper says 7:30PM, my contract says 7:30PM...

My point is that you need to be flexible and there's no reason to be "that guy" if something unusual happens.

I agree. I'm not looking for a T here, but I think the visiting team in the OP can force the issue.

Not if I'm back in the locker room, they can't. :D

How?

I think at least the T for not providing the roster to the scorer applies. If the visiting team demands that I assess it, I don't see how I could avoid doing so.

I'd rather stay out of it if possible.

I don't call anything because the other team demands it. It is possible, so stay out of it.

I'm going to have to disagree. The roster wasn't there 10 minutes before the scheduled start time. Yes, there were extenuating circumstances that should cause a good-sportsman opponent wave the T, but I don't see how I can ignore it if they won't.

You wouldn't just ignore the T for adding a player during the game, especially if the coach demanded you apply the rule and for me this is a similar enough situation. I don't have a problem with it not being that way for you.

It's never happened to me. In fact, I've even had a team refuse to accept a T for adding a player during a game.

It has been agreed upon by some, not all, that the "scheduled start time" is a bit of a gray area. I wouldn't ignore a T for anything, but if I did, that wouldn't change because of the insistence of the opposing coach. On the other hand, a team does not have the option of refusing to accept a T. They can intentionally miss the free throws and throw the ball out of bounds if they wish.

I certainly seem to have the firmest definition of scheduled start time.

A point I tried unsuccessfully to make to the referee at the time.

What if the late coach has the key to the gym and everybody is waiting outside? Do you T both teams for not having their lineup submitted?

I have no problem with your interpretation of the rule, and if you decided to issue a T where most of us wouldn't, I have no problem with that either.

However, this is twice you seemed to intimate that "especially if the coach demanded..." matters to you. It should not. Ever. If you decided it was a T, it's a T. If you decided it's not, it's not. Opposing coach's insistence is completely and entirely irrelevant, and honestly it irks me to some degree that you seem to consider it relevant.

Look at it this way: the home team needs the visiting team's agreement to reschedule the start time. The teams have a contract that specifies the start time. The teams may, by common consent, reschedule the start time at any point prior to the ball being tossed.

The visiting team's coach in this instance is demonstrating that he does not agree to the rescheduling and so it is a T. If he doesn't ask for it, he is agreeing to the rescheduling so there is no infraction.

Whether or not there is a T depends on whether the scheduled start time is changed which depends on the other coach agreeing to the change. So, yes, the T is up to the offended coach, imo.

For my part, I'm going to try to talk him into agreeing to just start the game.

You think HS games have a contract? I doubt that most of them have anything like that. The league dictates most of their schedules.


I've started games up to 1 hour late due to the earlier games running long (OT's plus and extended delay for injury). The schedule start time was 7:30. Since the game before was still in the 1st half at 7:20, I was not going to check to see if both teams had provided their info. I wasn't even on the court. :p

I'm curious. Did charging the opponent with a technical foul get the underclassmen to the other game on time? :rolleyes:

We don't know why the home coach was late. Perhaps a valid reason, perhaps not.

However, scheduling a second game for players to play in on the same night certainly doesn't seem very prudent. I wonder who the coach would blame if this game had gone into overtime?

Seems to me the technical was assessed moreso to please the visiting coach than anything else. Personally, I would not have called it. I think this penalty is more about fair play and assumes the coach is actually in the building but does not complete his duties. I've seen a state Elite Eight game delayed 45 minutes because one team brought the wrong color uniforms. No one even suggested a technical foul.


Don't be a plumber.

I've had two games in seven years start with free throws-almost had number three yesterday.

A.Varsity Boys-kid dunking during warmups

B.JV Girls Tourney-uniform issue

Near miss was last night-JV Girls-visitors have two #12's in away uniforms.coach offers to turn one of them into #2 but coach just decides not to play the player so he can have his box.

Your area my be different. In my area, yes, these games are contracted between the schools.

Three very valid points.

Yes, the clock was set and counting down when I arrived. They stopped it at 5 minutes so the team could finish getting ready. And no I don't think it is the right thing to do every time if the game doesn't start right when scheduled.

I agree with you on all points. Especially the plumber part. :D

The coach doesn't lose his box for an administrative T.

And, it's a T to have identical numbers in the book even if one (or both) of them doesn't play.

Thanks Bob-
I had a suspicion that was the case :D He passed on the T for duplicate numbers when the coach said he wouldn't play one of them.

I'm not sure that's "wrong" at a JV game.