FT violation?

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Because it's the trial's primary coverage area on a free throw?

If I were the lead, I would wait a few seconds, enough time for the trail to sound his whistle, if he didn't, then I would sound mine. I know that it's not my primary, but I'm not letting an obvious violation like this pass.

Next time... this.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Why didn't you call it instead of asking?

It is frustrating working with officials that don't know the rules.

This crew 0 for 2

Ouch, a little harsh don't you think? I am only a third year official. I thought it was a violation and asked my more seasoned varsity partner quickly who said no. I couldn't quote the rule thus would be unable to properly explain to a coach why I called it. To me, "It just is..." is a piss poor excuse to give to coaches. It is a measly little case play and nothing in the rules says anything about this being a violation. Now I know. And I know what you mean about working with officials that don't know the rules, although it is more frustrating when they call traveling on a loose ball slide or 3 seconds while ball is in the backcourt. Those are everyday plays that we should be getting right. I have never seen anyone lose control of the ball on a FT, ever... This is a rare play.
Thanks for the condescention.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Ouch, a little harsh don't you think? I am only a third year official. I thought it was a violation and asked my more seasoned varsity partner quickly who said no. I couldn't quote the rule thus would be unable to properly explain to a coach why I called it. To me, "It just is..." is a piss poor excuse to give to coaches. It is a measly little case play and nothing in the rules says anything about this being a violation. Now I know. And I know what you mean about working with officials that don't know the rules, although it is more frustrating when they call traveling on a loose ball slide or 3 seconds while ball is in the backcourt. Those are everyday plays that we should be getting right. I have never seen anyone lose control of the ball on a FT, ever... This is a rare play.
Thanks for the condescention.

Did not knowing this make you commit to studying the case book on a daily basis?

The reason many of us are condescending is that when a situation happens that only happens once in a great while, a lot of officials blow it off and say, "well, that doesn't happen often." They say, "It is a measly little case play." That's a terrible attitude. You didn't know the rule and yet you're still blowing it off.

Even the worst on-court officials can be great with the rules. And if you're a good on-court official, it doesn't cost you anything extra to be great with the rules.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Rich

Did not knowing this make you commit to studying the case book on a daily basis?

The reason many of us are condescending is that when a situation happens that only happens once in a great while, a lot of officials blow it off and say, "well, that doesn't happen often." They say, "It is a measly little case play." That's a terrible attitude. You didn't know the rule and yet you're still blowing it off.

Even the worst on-court officials can be great with the rules. And if you're a good on-court official, it doesn't cost you anything extra to be great with the rules.

I am in the rule book and case book everyday, even before this happened. Just because I read it once or twice doesn't mean it is solidified in the memory banks nor does it mean that I would know the proper procedure for calling a violation or foul, just becuase I read about it. Like I said, I now know the rule, why, the penalty and how to administer it in the future, including whistling outside my PCA and taking the call from a senior official who doesn't know what they are doing either. I wasn't blowing it off, I just hadn't had to put it into practice so I was unsure of myself. In basketball there is book smarts and there are street smarts and you have to have both. I am getting to be pretty book smart, but still have a long way to go with the street smarts.

My point to you and icallfouls is please keep the condescention to yourselves. Isn't this forum's purpose to discuss rules, situations, and anything else basketball for the betterment of the collective group as a whole? Saying "you and are your partner are terrible officials" doesn't help anyone, and it may actually drive people from the forum so they don't continue to improve, this does not benifit our avocation, reputation or help create better officials for the future. What would be benificial is to offer up advice for how to improve and continue to share and pay forward the knowledge that many of you experts on this forum have. We younger officials glean a ton of knowledge and wisdom from those of you that have been doing this for decades, and we appreciate it.

Do you truly think that I just blew it off as "oh it is just a rare play, It doesn't really matter if I missed it." ? If you think this you are wrong. If I was blowing it off, I wouldn't have taken the time to figure out the proper call, and not only that, know I have shared my experience with potentially hundreds of other officials so hopefully, someone else can benefit from my error and prevent them from making the same mistake. I did not "blow it off."

And I would never watch one of your games and say "Oh that is a terrible official" just because you made a mistake. We all make them. No one is perfect. It is and was a learning moment for me and for each of us every time we or a partner makes a mistake. I would tactfully point out the situation to you and ask your opinion on why you did what you did and what you would do in the future.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Ouch, a little harsh don't you think? I am only a third year official. I thought it was a violation and asked my more seasoned varsity partner quickly who said no. I couldn't quote the rule thus would be unable to properly explain to a coach why I called it. To me, "It just is..." is a piss poor excuse to give to coaches. It is a measly little case play and nothing in the rules says anything about this being a violation. Now I know. And I know what you mean about working with officials that don't know the rules, although it is more frustrating when they call traveling on a loose ball slide or 3 seconds while ball is in the backcourt. Those are everyday plays that we should be getting right. I have never seen anyone lose control of the ball on a FT, ever... This is a rare play.
Thanks for the condescention.

Just look at it this way. You came here for information, which is plentiful. Just like anyplace else, people have different ways of communicating. It is up to you to sort through the information and hang onto what you consider useful. The delivery of the information? You may like it, and you may not, but the nastiest guy here will probably speak to you more nicely than your average coach.

You knew the job was dangerous when you took it.

Now for my opinion: Giving an explanation of a violation to a coach is not something to spend a lot of time worrying about. He saw what happened. He heard the whistle. It's kinda self explanatory. At worst, you say "She dribbled it off her foot, that's a violation." How certain of any rule do you have to be before you will actually blow the whistle? Only you can decide.

[icallfouls]

see below

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

I am in the rule book and case book everyday, Every day? Then it would seem that you should be more familiar. Or were you using it for a pillow? even before this happened. Just because I read it once or twice doesn't mean it is solidified in the memory banks nor does it mean that I would know the proper procedure for calling a violation or foul, just becuase I read about it. Like I said, I now know the rule, why, the penalty and how to administer it in the future, including whistling outside my PCA and taking the call from a senior official who doesn't know what they are doing either. Then how senior were they really? Maybe just older. I wasn't blowing it off, I just hadn't had to put it into practice so I was unsure of myself. In basketball there is book smarts and there are street smarts and you have to have both. I am getting to be pretty book smart, but still have a long way to go with the street smarts.

My point to you and icallfouls is please keep the condescention to yourselves. Isn't this forum's purpose to discuss rules, situations, and anything else basketball for the betterment of the collective group as a whole? Saying "you and are your partner are terrible officials" no one said terrible, you did.doesn't help anyone, and it may actually drive people from the forum if your feelings are hurt, maybe officiating isn't for you. so they don't continue to improve, this does not benifit our avocation, reputation or help create better officials for the future. What would be benificial is to offer up advice myself and others said the best advice - get into the rulebooks - it is advice, sorry you don't see it that way. for how to improve and continue to share and pay forward the knowledge that many of you experts on this forum have. We younger officials glean a ton of knowledge and wisdom from those of you that have been doing this for decades, and we appreciate it.

Do you truly think that I just blew it off as "oh it is just a rare play, It doesn't really matter if I missed it." ? If you think this you are wrong. If I was blowing it off, I wouldn't have taken the time to figure out no you didn't, you could have learned it by READING YOUR RULEBOOK the proper call, and not only that, know I have shared my experience with potentially hundreds of other officials so hopefully, someone else can benefit from my error and prevent them from making the same mistake. I did not "blow it off."

And I would never watch one of your games and say "Oh that is a terrible official" just because you made a mistakenot knowing the rules is not a mistake, a mistake is pointing the wrong direction on an OOB play.. We all make them. No one is perfect. It is and was a learning moment for me and for each of us every time we or a partner makes a mistake. I would tactfully point out the situation to you and ask your opinion on why you did what you did and what you would do in the future.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Ouch, a little harsh don't you think? I am only a third year official. I thought it was a violation and asked my more seasoned varsity partner quickly who said no. I couldn't quote the rule thus would be unable to properly explain to a coach why I called it. To me, "It just is..." is a piss poor excuse to give to coaches. It is a measly little case play and nothing in the rules says anything about this being a violation. Now I know. And I know what you mean about working with officials that don't know the rules, although it is more frustrating when they call traveling on a loose ball slide or 3 seconds while ball is in the backcourt. Those are everyday plays that we should be getting right. I have never seen anyone lose control of the ball on a FT, ever... This is a rare play.
Thanks for the condescention.

Wasn't trying to be harsh or condescending, but now here you go.

I really don't think that "being a 3rd year official" is an excuse for not knowing the rules. That particular situation has been in the manuals previously (try your online casebook if you don't, have your manuals with you, it can be found 9.1.1 Situation. It is apparent that more officials need to spend more time on the rules. Do yourself, your partners, and the game a favor, learn the rules.

We aren't getting paid to gradually learn the rules, or learn them as we go. Your said that you are "only a third year official" which is a "piss poor excuse." I have worked college games with 3rd year officials that have saved the crew because they took the time to learn and know the rules while they were working to improve other aspects of their game.

If you have not seen this play ever, work more youth games, it happens. That is why it is in the book, that you have yet to read. Did you even look it up after your game? Do you take your rule books with you to games?

We need our partners to know the rules. Be the partner the crew has confidence in, not the partner we can't go to because rules knowledge is weak.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

...
If you have not seen this play ever, work more youth games, it happens. That is why it is in the book, that you have yet to read. Did you even look it up after your game? Do you take your rule books with you to games?
....

Ahh, you've hit on my pet peeve. It's one thing to not know a rule during a game or halftime discussion. We've all had that happen to us. But I don't understand how a serious official would not then FIRST go to the rule and case books himself before coming to this site to ask other officials what the rule is.

[maven]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

But I don't understand how a serious official would not then FIRST go to the rule and case books himself before coming to this site to ask other officials what the rule is.

Really? It's so much easier to ask you than to pore through the dang books!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

I have worked college games with 3rd year officials that have saved the crew because they took the time to learn and know the rules while they were working to improve other aspects of their game.

So what was your, and your more experience crew's, piss poor excuse for not knowing a rule that a third year guy knows? ??? !!!!???!!!!???

Just jabbin ya, (although there is a point in there somewhere, I think)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

So what was your, and your more experience crew's, piss poor excuse for not knowing a rule that a third year guy knows? ??? !!!!???!!!!???

Just jabbin ya, (although there is a point in there somewhere, I think)

Your point is valid. But I think the point of icallfoul's rant is that "only being a 3rd year official" is not an excuse to not know a rule b/c there are plenty of 3rd year officials who know the book inside and out.

If you don't know a rule, you just don't know the rule.

[MD Longhorn]

BTW - while I do agree that this site is a resource... I truly think looking for it in the book is FAR superior. How many times have we grabbed the book to look for something, and while looking for it discover something else entirely? Ask the question here, and you get the answer to just that question (along with a semi-polite discussion regarding whether asking the forum is as good as looking it up, along with a minor bruise on your ego when you're told to look it up yourself). Look for the answer in the book, and you'll find the answer - and likely learn something else along the way.

A less strong version of getting a fish or learning to fish.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Wasn't trying to be harsh or condescending, but now here you go.

I really don't think that "being a 3rd year official" is an excuse for not knowing the rules. That particular situation has been in the manuals previously (try your online casebook if you don't, have your manuals with you, it can be found 9.1.1 Situation. It is apparent that more officials need to spend more time on the rules. Do yourself, your partners, and the game a favor, learn the rules.

We aren't getting paid to gradually learn the rules, or learn them as we go. Your said that you are "only a third year official" which is a "piss poor excuse." I have worked college games with 3rd year officials that have saved the crew because they took the time to learn and know the rules while they were working to improve other aspects of their game.

If you have not seen this play ever, work more youth games, it happens. That is why it is in the book, that you have yet to read. Did you even look it up after your game? Do you take your rule books with you to games?

We need our partners to know the rules. Be the partner the crew has confidence in, not the partner we can't go to because rules knowledge is weak.

You are right no excuses. More time in the books it is. Yes I did look it up after the game and yes I take the rules book and case book and handbook with me to every game.
No one knows every rule perfectly, every case play perfectly or can rule properly every situation, every time. No one.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

You are right no excuses. More time in the books it is. Yes I did look it up after the game and yes I take the rules book and case book and handbook with me to every game.
No one knows every rule perfectly, every case play perfectly or can rule properly every situation, every time. No one.

Speak for yourself

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

FT shooter at the FT line, I bounce pass the ball to her. She takes a couple of dribbles and then dribbles off her own foot. The ball rolls away to my P at T. I look at him and mouth "violation?" He shakes his head and bounces the ball back to shooter who shoots FT. No one complains or says anything. I am guessing this is a FT violation.

How old was the shooter?