The Official Forum - Fighting ???

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)

- Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)

- - Fighting ??? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/93462-fighting.html)

I discovered this in some IAABO educational materials:

"If A1 and B1 fight during a live or dead ball, they are charged with flagrant technical fouls and disqualified from the game."

Is this true? If A1 and B1 start a fight during a live ball, wouldn't the fouls be flagrant personal fouls, not flagrant technical fouls?

And the difference is important. In this case it's a double foul, with no free throws, but if only A1 throws a punch, and B1 just backs off, the flagrant personal foul would mean that B1 shoots the free throws, whereas, if it was a flagrant technical foul, any Team B player could shoot the free throws.

There is ambiguity in the rule....

Quote:

4-18 FIGHTING
Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:
ART. 1 . . . An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.
ART. 2 . . . An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.

10-3 PLAYER TECHNICAL
A player shall not:
ART. 8 . . . Be charged with fighting.

Those words are pretty clear and direct.

While, elsewhere, it says...

Quote:

4-19 FOUL
ART. 4 . . . A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

These words lead you to believe that fighting isn't always a technical foul, despite 10-3 laying it out in very simple terms.

And you are correct on the implications of the distinction.

Personally, I don't think the greater infraction (swing and hit vs swing and miss) should carry a lesser penalty (victim shoots vs anyone shoots). It just feels backwards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 871256)

Personally, I don't think the greater infraction (swing and hit vs swing and miss) should carry a lesser penalty (victim shoots vs anyone shoots). It just feels backwards.

An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made

So let's say that the infraction starts with the beginning of the attempt. So therefore the ball is dead when the contact occurs, if there is any.