Lost time out...
 

College game last night.

Visiting team is making a comeback from 22 down and have cut the lead to 5 with 4 minutes to go and the teams are trading baskets.

With 1:13 to go Home team gets trapped on the sideline and has to call their last TO. My partners are taking care of the TO administration and having a discussion on the opposite side of the floor. The table crew has told them that the home team still has 1 time out left.

I am observing the home team and the coach tells his team they are out of TO's - as both teams are tracking them. One of my partners is telling the home team that they still have 1 TO left. I go over and tell them that the coach thinks he has no TO's left. The book does a quick recheck, 1 TO left for the home team. Can you smell the home cooking?

Coach has asked R, so if I call TO, you are not going to T me? "no, the book says you have one left"

R explains this to visiting team as well and we get ready to inbound the ball. I bounce the ball to the inbounder, who has trouble getting ball in, but does so on 4 count. Visitors trap the ball near midcourt, clock does not start for 4 or 5 seconds, the home team is able to split the trap and make a pass, AND the shot clock had been reset when the ball was caught by the home team. I remember looking at the clock 1:13 left and :13 left. The T and the C kill the play.

Now that we have fixed everything, the table sounds the horn. "I found the last TO, home team is out of TO's"

Both coaches are difficult in the best of situations. If home team had called a TO, the visiting coach likely goes crazy saying that the extra time out should be TF. If we TF the excessive TO, the home coach goes bananas which might get another TF.

Maybe we should start carrying pad and pen like football/soccer to track TO's ourselves? :)

I'm never gonna do that........ and if the table says they have one left, they subsequently call one, then the table says they didn't have one left, I'm not gonna call a T. jmo

If the coach thinks s/he has zero TOs left, I'm not getting involved even if I think (or the book thinks) they have 1 left).

And, I do try to track them myself.

Like Sergeant Schultz Would Say ...
 

I only want the table to tell me when the team has been granted all of their timeouts, or have been granted an excess (illegal) timeout. I will only tell the coach when his team has been granted all of their timeouts, or when his team has been granted an excess (illegal) timeout. This keeps me out of trouble.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8105U1WY9ro" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Basically, if the table makes a mistake and tells the coach he has one timeout left, he calls it, then they say he had none, you're in the clear because you weren't involved? So you think the appropriate thing to do in that sitch is assess the T since there's no blood on your hands? Is that what you're saying?

wow that is one bad official scorer! was the AD of the host institution notified that he should probably start looking for a replacement official scorer? icall-your crew handled this perfectly IMHO

Tell me this didn't happen in the state of Washington. Please.
:D



(sorry :p )

When there was a question about the number of TO's why wasn't the visiting book consulted to see if they match? Yes, the official book is the official book but why not compare them and practice a little preventative officiating?

-Josh

I Am Innocent Of This Man's Blood (Pontius Pilate) ...
 

God invented assistant coaches to keep their mouths shut, to keep their butts on the bench, and to keep track of granted timeouts. Officials are not expected to know, and communicate, any more timeout information then is required by the rules. If the table communicates the wrong information to the coach, and then the coach requests, and is granted, an excess (illegal) time out, then I don't believe that we can give his team a pass, and that we must charge the team with a technical foul. Even if it's the visiting coach, he still has a scorekeeper at the bench to, hopefully, prevent this situation.

If the table forgot to inform me that the team had been granted their last timeout, with me, obviously, not communicating this to the coach, and then he requested, and was granted, another timeout, at which time the scorekeeper informed me that the coach requested, and was granted, an excess (illegal) timeout, then I would still charge a technical foul to the team. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't believe that invoking 2-3, or advantage/disadvantage is allowed, by rule here, although if an official chose to go this route, I would not point out the undercarriage of a bus to him.

There's guy I now that uses an elastic to track TOs and fouls (whether or not we're in the bonus).

He does it because the score keeping is atrocious at times.

To combat the problem in some tournaments that I've worked, where coaches think they have more TOs than what the table shows, I have taught the table that the more you document things, the less chance that a challenge to your record keeping will be made. So I have them record the quarter and time remaining, along with the location of the the ball, when the TO is granted. The look at the scorer's face, when the coach walks away in a huff after given this information, is priceless.

When I sit on the bench that's exactly what I do!

In my own experiences as a scorekeeper, a number of officials seem to understand the portion of the rule that says the referee shall accept the record of the official score book, but ignore the second half of the sentence that allows the official to rule otherwise in the presence of definitive knowledge.

I was scorekeeper at a MS-G doubleheader a few years back where the home team had no scorer at the table for the 7th grade game and the start of the 8th grade game. It was until the final period when it looked as if the home team took an excessive timeout that someone suddenly appeared with a score book claiming that the home team still had a time out left.

I tried to question how that book could be accurate since the book wasn't there to start the game and could not have accurate information for both teams (because nobody was around for me to submit our roster to) and such, but the referee was steadfast that the home book is always the official book and whatever is in it stands. :mad:

I always record time/period/who asked when granted. It's helped out in the past. At an old rec tournament I used to score at. A team was sure they had more time outs left, but when I read off when each one was taken and by whom, that was persuasive enough for the officials.

This is why I am not a fan of telling coaches what they have on my own. I do not try to find out and I do not try to tell everyone what the situation is as a normal practice. The teams should be following this on their own and if there is an issue then we can get involved, but as a general rule, I stay out of these. But people feel like this is so important and do it and here is why I want to stay out of these bookkeeping issue.

Peace

IOW, you have no interest in managing the game. You have no interest in communicating with the table or coaches. You have no interest in preventative officiating. You're just out there to blow your whistle.

That's not an acceptable mode of operation here.

Thanks.

My handy dandy CCA manual (NCAAW) says "Notify the head coach of the team that has called its final timeout." So...we say nothing.

There's really nothing positive that can come from telling a coach they have a timeout when they don't think they do and the table isn't sure. If they - the coach - think they're out, no one tries to call one. If we tell them they have one then they call it and during the TO the table says, "ummm, they actually didn't have one" then we have to charge that team with an administrative T. The penalty is even worse in my code since the other team gets the ball.

If the situation is reversed - table says no TO, we give that information to the coach and the coach believes he/she has one - then it'll be figured out right then and there.

As was said earlier, this is what assistant coaches are for. Regarding the table: in a college game there are two scorers and a play-by-play person sitting there. The official NCAA scorebook also includes space to write down who called a timeout and when. I would think one of those folks should've been able to figure out what was wrong fairly quickly.

Sixth Time Out ...
 

In reference to timeouts, maybe. If a coach, for whatever reason, is misinformed regarding the number, if any, of his timeouts remaining, and if he requests, and is granted, a sixth time out in regulation, I won't charge the technical foul right away. I will get together with both scorekeepers, as well as my partner, to try to get the most definitive information possible, and maybe determine the cause of the mistaken communication. However, if it's his sixth timeout in regulation, I will charge the technical foul, to not do so would put the other team at a disadvantage, unless of course, you are also going to give the other team an "extra" timeout.

And what if that sixth timeout was requested, and granted, to avoid a ten second violation, a probable turnover, when the official's count was up to nine, with the ball still deep in the backcourt? Do you think that the opposing coach is going to be pleased with the other team getting "extra" timeout to avoid a violation, and probable turnover, without any penalty? I think not.

Or what if the "extra timeout is to avoid a situation where his player is trapped by two defenders, against a boundary corner, with a turnover, by a steal, or a five second violation, very probable? "Extra" timeout allowed? Again, I think not.

Rarely do additional wrongs make up for a previous wrong. Things just get "wronger" and much tougher to explain when your assigning commissioner calls later that night, or the next morning. One can rarely go wrong by following the rules, even after mistakes are made.

You're talking about handling things when the cat is already out of the bag. I'm talking about becoming involved and preventing it from happening to begin with.

Sitting back and ignoring such situations until you get to blow your whistle is exactly what created this situation. You're trying to avoid the situation by ignoring it and taking no ownership of what is going on in your game.

"Well, if I don't know what's going on, I can just sit back, let it happen and then I get to blow my whistle." :(

Manage the game, manage the scorer's table and manage the players and coaches and you prevent such situations from happening.

Based on the OP my question would be what was there to manage? If the crew follows procedure and doesn't say anything to the head coach - since the crew was told the home team had one timeout remaining - there shouldn't be anything else to do at that point.

If that coach doesn't call a TO for the rest of the game, no harm done. If the table tells him he has a TO, he calls one then the scorers figure out he doesn't have one, managing the game means dealing with an excessive timeout.

We had a similar situation on Friday night. Visiting team thinks they are out of timeouts. It's a close game near the end and he wants to make sure what he has. I check the home book: 2 TO's left. The visiting book agrees that they have 2 TO's left. We go with the home book. The home coach has no problem with it.

An Ounce Of Prevention ...
 

Preventive Officiating Regarding Timeouts (Managing The Game With Something Other Then Blowing The Whistle):

1) As the referee, tell both scorekeepers, pregame, to check with each other team points, personal fouls, team fouls, timeouts, warnings, possession arrow, etc., and if there's a discrepancy, to inform the nearest official as soon as possible. With that discrepancy, both officials will do the best they can to discover the cause, and to "fix" any discrepancy, using the rules, definite knowledge, common sense, arithmetic, timekeeper, etc.

2) Near the end of the game, maybe during the third/fourth period intermission, or during any timeouts nearer to the end of the game, to tell both scorekeepers to be sure to inform either official if a team uses it's fifth time out (in regulation), or uses a time out in excess of five timeouts (in regulation).

3) When a team has used their fifth time out (in regulation) to be sure to inform the head coach that his team has "used up" all of their alloted timeouts.

4) Knowing that team has no timeouts remaining, when an official hears the request for a timeout from that bench, take an extra second, or so, to be sure that it is the head coach of that team that is, indeed, requesting that timeout, not a fan behind the bench, or an assistant coach.

That's the way it's done here in my little conner of Connecticut. Skip any of of those four steps, and we're part of the problem, but, if a head coach requests, and is granted, a sixth timeout, his team will be charged with a technical foul, no free passes, it wouldn't be fair to the other team, and, indeed, might put them at a disadvantage not intended by the rules.

If the coach doesn't have any timeouts, then we would have informed him of that. If the table tells the coach he has one timeout remaining and then says he doesn't have any when he calls it, then we haven't managed the game. Ignoring the situation isn't managing it.

What you said: +10,000

video: +10,000


MTD, Sr.

Are you saying you keep up with the number of timeouts as they are used?
(I don't)

Otherwise, the exchange between the coach and the table could happen without our knowledge. Then, the table could discover the mistake? and not tell anyone until the next timeout is called. What could we have done to prevent this?

Here's what I would do at this point:

Table: He doesn't have any timeouts.

Coach: They just told me I did have a timeout.

Me: Table, is this true?

Table: yes.......oops

Me: No T and no timeout. Play ball.

From the beginning of the 4th quarter going forward, yes.

Even so, if the don't tell me that he's used his last one, he requests one, they tell me he doesn't have anymore but they've told him he does, then we're not going to have a T and we're not going to have a timeout. Let's play.

But the idea that you stand out in the middle of the floor and just ignore the possibility that something might be wrong because "This keeps me out of trouble," is a chicken$hit way of handling it IMO.

it could have gotten ugly. we notified our assignor and will let the league handle it. not sure there is anything to do, but we were able to avoid a potentially bad situation

Both teams knew the TO situation, I thought I stated as much. That is why we had the discussion with both coaches. But in the end, the official book is where the correct information is supposed to be.

+1

Perhaps there are more delicate ways to put it, :D but it's hard to argue with this.

I try to. Wish I did a better job at it. Sometimes when I checking the book late in the 2nd half I will check to make sure each scorer has the same time-out count.

JAR beat me to it but the table/coach conversation could have - and probably would have - happened without the crew's knowledge. If he and/or the scorers bring it to our attention of course we'll handle it. But if the table tells the crew one thing and the coach believes another and nothing is said, there's nothing for the crew to do.

As I said earlier, there are more backup systems in an NCAA game to prevent something like this from happening before it gets to the crew. Once it gets to us all those systems have failed and we deal with it.

Get Together With The Scorekeepers ...
 

It's pretty tough to stand in the middle of the floor and do what I stated in my quote above.

you know how volleyball officials have to wear those shirts that say "certified volleyball official" on them? well maybe the fed/ncaa should come up with a standard scorekeepers test-those of us who have more than 5 years of service at our schools should be exempted and get the patch automatically.it would say in my state "certified CIF-SS scorekeeper."

At that rate you might be the only scorekeeper in the country! :D

I have 7 years of full time varsity experience under my belt.but the idea is for conferences/leagues to get all their scorers together and make sure everyone is on the same page in terms of what we record and how we handle a game.any student scorer should be mandated to pass the test as well as attend the meeting.most of the adults working as scorers in our league have 2 or 3 years experience.

Perhaps the concern was that "not getting into trouble" was your primary objective, as opposed to interjecting yourself into a discussion between table and coach. (if necessary, if possible, which it may or may not be) Comparing yourself to Sgt. Schulz did nothing to discourage that impression.

Cold Turkey ...
 

Yet another reason for me to stop posting images, and videos. Too late for a 2013 New Year's resolution. Maybe I'll make it my resolution for the Chinese New Year, next month. It's going to be the Year of the Water Snake.

We appreciate your talent and devotion, but it is difficult to impose restrictions on labor which is, for the most part, unpaid. Around here, scorers and timers are for the most part, depending on the level, either volunteers or teachers pressed into after hours service, some of whom are obviously not excited about being there.

On the other hand, the main problem with the good experienced table personnel is that they take too much upon themselves. Many timers never watch for the official to chop the clock, and there is nothing worse than reporting a foul to a scorer who never looks up, but is already writing in the book.

I warn some on occasion: "Don't assume anything. The call may not have been that "obvious" thing that you saw. If there is a mistake, let it be mine, not yours."

I agree with you about the scorer already recording a foul before it is reported being very annoying.

Seems to me the opposite. You seem to have an interest in overmanaging the game and overcommunicating with the table and coaches. The rulebook doesn't tell you to update the coach on his timeouts except when he runs out. Now you've gone and communicated (improperly) with the coach something that turns out to be in error. And you have no "fair"way out of your conundrum.

I don't believe Mac is just out there to blow his whistle. From previous posts, he seems to know what he's talking about as well as anyone else here. You are railing on him for not doing something that the rulebook doesn't tell him to do. I think you're wrong.

Or Mob Wives ...
 

As a retired teacher, I can tell you that many teachers, at least here in my little corner of Connecticut, are usually lining up for a chance at this paid extracurricular duty. Maybe it's not great pay, but it's better than sitting at home watching Honey Boo Boo on the "boob tube".

East Oshkosh Foul, Number 15, Smith's Second, Team's Fourth ...
 

Yes there is something worse. It's when the game announcer announces the foul before you are finished reporting.

Please show me where I've posted I update the coach on how many timeouts he has, other than when required.

I'll save you the trouble, I didn't post any such thing nor have I advocated such. I said, I keep up with the timeouts beginning in the fourth quarter. By doing so, hopefully I can avoid a situation like this.

In my opinion, ignoring what two 16 y/o's are doing at the scorer's table because "it keeps me out of trouble" is not the best way to manage a game. You're certainly welcome to disagree with my opinion. And if I offended Billy Mac, I apologize. Being tactful has never been my strong suit.

Lent is coming.

When was the last time you saw "two 16 y/o's" running books at a college game? (I believe that was the game in the OP):p

In fact, I can't remember the last time anyone but an adult has done the Varsity books around these parts.

Having said that...an inexperienced adult, running the books, can really get you in trouble. (If you are not actively "managing" them...I'm with you there BBR)

We had one of those inexperienced adults the other night....

It was her FIRST time EVER keeping score. And this was for a Varsity game!
The clock operator was also inexperienced. Actually, this was a nightmare table crew.

Fouls were recorded wrong on the board...Score was recorded wrong on the board...TO's were not kept up to date on board...Disqualified player showed 4 fouls on board (player talked his coach into putting him back in the game because the board showed he only had 4 fouls):eek:

...that is a whole different story...:cool:

MORAL OF THIS STORY:

Quiz the table crew, when you are signing the books, just to get a feel for how knowledgeable they are.

i.e.

* When do you start the shot clock after the made basket?
(Some start it when it is at the throw-in teams disposal...some start after ball goes through hoop...some start when ball touches player on court)

* When do you start the play clock? (on our CHOP)

* When do you activate the first horn after TO's or a disqualification?
(Most get this, 15 seconds before the end of TO,...but, many do not know to activate the horn 5 seconds into a disqualification) [I usually count to 5 after I tell the clock operator to start the clock for a disqualification...then instruct to activate 1st horn, if they look confused] I stress to them that for TO's and disq. activate horn with 15 seconds left...no matter what length TO or disq. is...here is where you have to let them know 20 seconds for disq. replacement.

* I even ask the book to let us know when we are in the bonus. (I stress to them we don't want a correctable error situation)

* I ask them to give us a nice visible 5 for a disqualification...and a horn.

* I will ask the table crew when it is too late for a substitute to check in during a TO.(after the 1st horn...a player can check in after 1st horn...just won't get in right away)

I like this time with the table crew...I become familiar with the table crew and their knowledge...and best of all...

it gives me something to do during the "worst 15 minutes of basketball";)

Nothing Wrong With Sticking To Your Guns ...
 

No offense taken. No need to apologize. Hey. I've gone one on one with Jurassic Referee on this Forum, and lived to tell about it. After that, nothing on the Forum offends me. Dr. Jurassic Referee immunized me against "offense". Plus, I should have never posted that Sargent Schultz video, which I'm sure, many Forum members found to be offensive. But I won't apologize. If God didn't want me to post videos on the Forum, he would have never invented YouTube.

God thinks further ahead than that. If he didn't want you to post videos on the Forum, he would have never invented Al Gore.

I would say your crew is getting in trouble by relaying the number of timeouts left to a team. Don't do this, ever! If someone asks you how many timeouts they have, tell them to ask the book.

Had home called a timeout you would have been in a predicament.

Anytime there is a dispute in a college game in regard to timeouts... I would recommend going to the internet "play-by-play." (Not the radio) Usually there is someone at the table with a laptop charting each play in text. This includes the time of timeouts used and can be consulted if you need to get the play right.

Wasn't referring to the OP. I was referring to Billy Mac's post, who I am under the impression only works HS. If I'm wrong about that, BM is welcome to correct me.

Either way, it wasn't meant to be taken that every single game has 16 y/o scorers. But for the record, many of them do here and I do everything I can to keep it from going down the crapper because of them. :)

Tonight, varsity DH, there was a kid (not sure how old, my definition of "kid" is a lot broader than it used to be) keeping the official book. We had a timeout with about 2 or 3 minutes left in the girls game. I walked to the table and never said a word. He quickly volunteered. (pointing) "They have 2 left.....and they have 1." I said to just be sure and let us know if somebody has NONE. He assured me that he would.

A Mark Goodson Bill Todman Production ...
 

Hey. That's my line.

Note: None and excess.

Here's what I like to do with timeouts-

*Say a coach has used both 30's-I'll tell the reporting official "Last 30 for ______"

*On the next timeout after using the last 30 I wll make the full signal to signify that is all they have left

*Same ideas applies if they use all fulls first.

*Otherwise I tell them when they ask.

Call me crazy, but I want to know what a team has left and which kinds they have left. If a team has only 60-second timeouts left, I don't want to have to waste time asking the coach what he wants.

Toto, I Have A Feeling We’re Not In Kansas Anymore...
 

You're not crazy, you're just in Rome.

We discussed this as a crew and with the "play-by-play" person. He said that it would take 10 minutes or more to get back to the beginning of the play-by-play and track down the information. We did not pursue this as an option.

Not only waste time but it sure makes you look better when you know he's used up all of his 30's.

Exactly. I don't run to the coaches and tell them what they have left, bit I want to know.

I do exactly this. I know, but have no need to tell the coach til he's out.

This is about the only important thing I do in pregame. I tell the coaches, "Let us see the 30 signal, or you will get a full." Then, the worst thing that can happen is a 30 signal, scorer says they have no 30, and they get a full anyway.

If I know when they have none, I can figure out on my own if one is excess.

I use to say that, and some do here. Now, since the rule doesn't say to do this, I simply tell them to let me know, because otherwise I have to guess. If I'm feeling comedic, I'll point out that my wife tells me I'm horrible at reading minds so I'll probably guess wrong.

The rule doesn't say to do what? I'm telling them to let me know, as well. Signal a 30, no signal means full. I don't have to guess, either.

I'm not a fan of this -- I prefer to use a bit of preventive officiating. I ask once and I make sure the coach has my attention before I ask. Otherwise, it's a 60.

Since when do we need a rule to be preventive? Giving the "wrong" timeout seems like it can cause more trouble than it's worth.

I must have been unclear. My point was I don't default to a full. I try to guess, but I can't guarantee I'll guess correctly. Seems my odds are at least as good as if I defaulted to a 60.

In a HS game or non-media game this would be fine. However, even in small college games there are media formats and depending on the format, the full-timeouts can burn a media timeout. So just something to consider if you have that in your game.

It doesn't take that much longer to ask a coach what they want.... ideally you should not be starting the timeout clock until both players are at their benches which should give you a few seconds if you need clarification.

Better To Be Safe Than Sorry ...
 

Two officials. Two teams. Figure out the permutations. I want the scorekeeper to tell me when a team has used an excess (illegal) timeout, just in case I, or my partner, forgets that it's an excess (illegal) timeout that must be penalized. This is not a correctable error.

Also, more importantly, it's a rule: 2-11-9: Signal the nearer official each time a team is granted a time-out in excess of the allotted number.

Now, where are my house keys?

Thirty Or Sixty ???
 

After we ask once, or twice, without a response, this is the way it's done here in my little corner of the Constitution State.

The only difference is that out local interpreter wants us to call these thirty second, and sixty second, timeouts, not thirty second time outs, and full timeouts. Kinda like endline, and baseline, don't you think??

Wait, when did I say I don't ask?

What is wrong with having a default? If you have a default, you don't have to ask.

Didn't say anything was wrong with it. I just don't do it. When I did, i still asked.