Coach-Player misconduct: Get involved?
 

Boys freshmen yesterday, going OT. Both teams are at their respective benches. I call captains over for brief OT meeting.

While this is going on, Coach A is irate with seated A-1, telling the kid, "I'll throw your @$$ out." I pause and consider a T, but go with my leaning to stay out of it.

After the game, my partner tells me he heard the coach say "f***ing @$$." Had I heard that, I would've T'd, but my partner disagreed, citing the bench area is their domain, and if that gets back to a parent, any punishment would be far worse than any T (which is likely true).

Thoughts, please. T on either one?

Poppycock!
 

The court is our domain - and that includes the bench area.

Similar to if a player mutters a bad word or two under their breath, if it's loud enough for others in attendance to hear, unsporting - Whack!

Great question. I've heard some of the same on the football field (not to that extreme). However, I've heard football coaches implore their kids to hurt the other team. "It's half time and I don't see any kids hurt on the other sideline," or "when he goes up for a pass, you need to hit him right here in the ribs."

Whether or not you "confront" the coach (privately or in front of his/her players) I think is a case-by-case decision. But I think a phone call and E-mail to the AD (notify the assignor and Cc: him/her in the E-mail) giving details about the event would be appropriate.

I know my state has made it clear that profanity like this is not to be tolerated simply because it's directed within one team. I was thinking that direction came from the Fed, but I'm not sure. Bottom line, the coach will be seated for the overtime for that comment.

Football, nothing. If, however, he is calling for his team to injure the opponents, I believe that's flagrant in either sport.

I'm with you on this one. I personally wouldn't stick him on the first one you heard. I definitely would have if I had heard the second one, and I'm left to wonder why your partner didn't. If he's sure that's what he heard, the coach is still going to get that extra punishment if it gets back to parents, maybe worse, with the T or not. "Bench area is their domain" sounds like a cop out, IMO.

First, 10-3-6b and 10-4-1c allow us to deal with players and bench personnel (including coaches) when it comes to profanity. No one is allowed to commit unsporting acts, including...

The rule doesn't say anything about where that language is directed. I mentioned this last year but in NYC publics we have a mandate to follow 10-3-6b/10-4-1c to the letter. It's accompanied by a Dept. of Ed. rule that prohibits the use of profanity. It has cleaned up a lot of the language problems. It wasn't in a huddle but last year I rang up a coach who dropped an f-bomb after his team threw the ball away in OT. He wasn't happy with the T but he didn't argue because he knew the mandate. By the way, his team won.

Second, parents will support us if we call a technical on a head coach because they swore at their own players. When I worked Catholic ball our assignor told us to ring up coaches who swore in their huddles because the parents who sat behind the bench had started complaining to school administrators. I wouldn't think any parent wants to hear a coach drop an f-bomb at their kid. After all, coaches - at least in H.S. - are also teachers. We wouldn't allow it in a classroom and a game is a coach's classroom.

Improper Language ...
 

Many, many years ago, I overheard a male coach say to his female high school player, "Get your *ucking head in the game", as she was dribbling the ball past her team bench. The comment was only loud enough for the the player, and me, to hear.

I mentioned it to the athletic director on my way out. He was grateful that I mentioned it to him, and assured me that it wouldn't happen again.

There's a case or one of the yearly interps (check the sticky thread) that allows us to T even if profanity is directed at the coach's own team.

I am still not a fan of taking comments that are said in a team huddle and then taking action. I might say something to a coach about being loud, but if I called a T for that here, I would not be working in certain places. And once gain, the NF has not defined even what "inappropriate language" actually is in the first place. So what can be inappropriate to one person might be considered OK to another. And even the NCAA did a much better job to define what should be penalized. If I do hear something that could be out of line, I just tell them to stop like I would do during any other time in the game.

Peace

Technical foul. If you didn't hear it, fine - you were talking to players. But your P should enforce this one.

With the swear word, likely nothing, except if persistent, warn the coach, and if continued, write it on the game sheet.

Is there anywhere the word "*ucking" is not inappropriate ?

Northeastern Illinois

Warn and then what?

I think it's funny we get all up in arms over such language. When I hear a football coach use this language in a huddle, it doesn't phase me in the least bit. Are we treating this differently because of the coaches' position close to the spectators in basketball?

It might not be appropriate, but that does not mean every time I hear it is warrants a T. Not T'ing a kid that blows out his knee and uses that word. And there is nothing in the rules that says it matters when it is used if I listen to folks here. And it will be the first I see anyone give a T for that kind of scenario. Let us act like we do not use common sense or warn other infractions that would be obvious rules violations. Do not tell me this is so bad and no one is giving Ts for other things like being "technically" out of the coaching box. We all make provisions for things to get the rules applied appropriately.

Peace

I noticed a huge difference in football and basketball; particularly with this word when used between teammates. Around here, use between teammates earned a "talk to." I'm not sure I'd address it at all if it came from a coach.

Basketball is different, though. Maybe it is because everything is so enclosed. Most huddles in football are at least 30-40 yards away from spectators, outside. In basketball, there's as little as 3 feet separating the bench and spectators.

There it is. Rut, there's no gray area with an f-bomb. That's why they call them "f-bombs."

Conversely, the word "@$$" is far more accepted, although it's still edited on this forum, hence the symbols I use for that word. That word may have gotten you some trouble when I was a kid, but not so much now.

Who calls them F-bombs? I do not use that slang term and do not know many people where I am from that do either. So to use that colloquialism as the reason we all do something or interprete something is a little misplaced. Whether we like it or not, there are communities and cultures that use harsher language as a standard. If you penalize every time someone says something like this, you would have a lot of Ts every single game. All I am saying, is use common sense and let the participants know that they can be heard (most are not heard by many) and tell them to knock it off just like you would other things. I do not see use of language to be such and egregious violation of the rules over other things that cannot be warned or have a "talk to" as other aspects of the rules we apply in similar ways.

I agree to a point, but still would not treat this usuage any differently than I do the other word that was referenced. Then again in certain places that word would be seen as inappropriate and it is obvious people are using their own standards for what is appropriate and what is not.

Peace

In my pre-game...
 

In my pre-game and post-game.

Just about everyone that I know of. It is very common and widespread.

The warning is a mention that we're noticing the elevated behavior. In the OP, he asked about the case where there was no cursive language. I have no T in that case, but a comment like "coach, your voice is quite loud during the intermission".

An elevated "I'll throw your a$$ out" isn't appropriate in an freshman educational setting, imho.

Like I said, if it's persistent after a reminder, then I may write it down. Or better yet, document it to my local referee board and let them deal with it.

Camron,

You live out west. You are not Black, you are not someone from the inner city and you are not from the south side. There are a lot of people in this world you do not know, trust me on that one.

Peace

And Yes, Adam Is A Bad Boy ...
 

With all due respect to JRutledge, Adam's post is certainly the "Post O' The Day", maybe even the "Post O' The Week".

(Note: I'm still interested to know what those who are from the northeastern corner of Illinois call what I, who has never had the pleasure of visiting the northeastern corner of Illinois, call Northeastern Illinois?)

Again no one here calls it Northeastern Illinois. I was in Central Illinois the last 4 days and officiated games, similar standards from what I could tell when it came to handling these situations.

And not every one of my life experiences is in Illinois. Some of us travel from time to time and have relatives in other parts of the country. I have absolutely no family members in the state of Illinois other than one parent. Everyone one else like cousins, aunts, uncles lives in other parts of the country, mostly the south and they do not say, "F-bomb." They would use the actual word, trust me on that one.

Peace

Around here, we don't call it central Illinois.


Sorry, couldn't help myself.

OK, but you do not know what I was located. They call it Central Illinois and that is all that matters. ;)

Peace

You (inferring some info from your post) don't live outside of northern Illinois, you're Black, you're from the inner city, and you're from the south side. There are a whole lot more people in the world than there are from that very limited demographic. Saying one very small group doesn't use the term is hardly proof that it isn't widely used.

And it is sufficiently widespread enough that Merriam-Webster has officially added it to the dictionary. (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/14/us/new...rds/index.html)

Actually Camron I am a small college rural kid. Lived in a small college town for over 25 years before moving to the area I currently live and have for 13 years.

Just stating that the people that I have been around a great deal do not use that term to describe the use of the certain word. And I was responding to someone saying that "The reason they call it an F-Bomb...." was the reason it was seen as totally inappropriate. Just stating that do not assume because you think it is so inappropriate that there are not people in this world that use that word as an adjective, noun or verb sometimes. And it does not mean that it applies to only Black people. The dirties mouths I hear are from south side (does not mean necessarily Chicago south side but the suburbs) are older white guys. Actually my demographic was quite broad, but you might not know that where you are located.

My simple point that there are more than one ways to skin a cat and I have no problem addressing bad language, just think the T is not the only option as suggested here. Sometimes all you have to say is, "I can here you...." and the issue is solved and no one knows you even made a big deal out of this. And the language totally stops. I have done so 100 times with a quiet word and they usually say, "I am sorry ref." But a T then has to be explained and then someone right or wrong is going to evaluate if that was the right thing to do and if it was appropriate at that time.

I gave a T on Thursday for something else and I was asked to explain the situation to the tournament director. And no specific language was used in that situation that was called inappropriate. We all work for different people and hold different positions. Where I work, I would get in trouble if that was the only reason I gave a T on the first kind of action.

Peace

You realize that Webster once put in the word "Jiggy" in the dictionary based on a song and that word was not used widely by many in certain areas and I am not sure the word has been used a lot sense. Language is a fluid and complicated thing and just because a word is used in the dictionary or not, does not mean there are words or saying that are very commonly used in certain communities, regions or cultures and sub-cultures. And I will never likely see those words used in normal conversation with every day people in any dictionary. Webster is a Eurocentric publication and a lot of people are not of that persuasion. And that includes rural people that are not people of color. ;)

Peace

Just because someone uses a word, it doesn't mean that person doesn't consider the word to be inappropriate. (dirty) Often that's the whole point of using the word.

I think pretty much everybody knows that the f word is considered inappropriate.

George Carlin had a monologue many years ago about "words you can't use on tv." The standard has softened considerably over time, but then, like now, the f word is at the top of the list.

Like others, I don't toss out a T every time I hear one of these words, but I will say this. If you T anybody for using the f word, this is the one time you will never hear:

"What? What did I do?"

Good point. And where I work, I could get in trouble for not giving a T in the situation given in the OP (assuming I heard the helping verb like the partner said he did), especially given that it was a freshman game. Around these parts, at that level, handling that with an "I can hear you" would be frowned upon.

You are absolutely right at the beginning of this post. It also does not mean that the person that hears it will assume what you say is inappropriate either or want to give a T. You can do whatever you want in these situations, me (and others) are not going to give a T on the first situation heard. Just go say something and problem would be solved. No one has said anything on this site every to change how I feel on that front.

I was never a big fan of George Carlin (surprise). I had other comedians I held in higher regard and found funnier and we are not talking about TV. But we are not talking about a sport where a lot of language is used that would not be in other aspects of our society. That is just a fact. It may not be right, but it is a fact.

Peace

In a Freshman game there is likely fewer people in the gym. In a varsity game or where a lot of people are located, it would be harder to hear. I might be talking to my other partners and really not hear anyone say anything in a huddle. And most of all I doubt seriously I am going to hear a coach say much of anything where we stand as well. Not paying attention to them and certainly not listening to every word they say. But hey, some people like to trouble trouble, and that is not ever going to change.

Peace

I dont give a rat's flying *uck what a coach says to his player in their huddle. If the people courtside can hear it, they can complain to the athletic director or other school administrator and they can decide how they want to handle the coach. Otherwise, it is just a word that the fragile freshman ball player you are so concerned about probably hears and says many times each day. Grow some *ucking thicker skin!

I happen to totally agree with this. I guess some here do not hear what kids say to each other very often at that age. They use that word much more than it is said to them by a coach, I can almost guarantee that one.

Peace

JRut, as I did last year I respectfully disagree and I meet two of the four criteria you put out for Camron: I'm Black and I grew up in East Flatbush, Brooklyn. I also work virtually all of my games for public schools in NYC.

I do understand what you're saying about problems arising if a T was called in your area on a player or coach for shouting profanity during a game in certain situations (and yes, I've ignored it when a kid is injured) but as I said last year if you give the players a standard they'll live up to it, mainly because they want to play.

During our pre-game captains' meetings (with the coaches in boys, no coaches in girls) we remind them of the zero tolerance on profanity. The first season ('10-11) I remember calling it about 10 times. Last season, twice. This season I haven't had to do it yet. To me that proves what I said earlier: the kids adjust, just as they do with how officials call a game on a given night.

As to your point that what some people consider profanity, others might not: in the vast majority of situations I don't buy it. Many people have never head George Carlin's "Seven Dirty Words You Can't Say On TV" routine but I think all seven are universal, especially among H.S.-age kids. If you tell them they can't use those words, that's a start.

I work games inside the City of Chicago, outside the City of Chicago, in the suburbs, in the rural areas, with small schools, big schools, public and private schools. If you want to know the truth, it is the private schools that have the worst language and behavior and there are in many cases not a single Black kid on either of the teams in many cases.

I do not set the standards for the kids and all their behavior, that is the coaches and schools that do so. I set the standard for the game and anytime something is done we have a responsibility to judge what cross the line and should be penalized. Just like all other areas of players talking to each other or committing a violation or two post players making contact in the post. We talk to players and coaches all the time about stuff, so why is this so unusual to do it in this case?

I would never use the term "zero tolerance" as all that does is make you seem like you are not enforcing things when something is said and you do not honestly hear the comments. Believe it or not, we all are not trying to hear everything thing someone says. I know I ignore coaches all the time when they have lost my respect. I certainly am not in the huddle with coaches to know what they are saying. As I said I am often talking to partners and sometimes table people. I am not worrying about what coaches are saying to players and vice versa. I know as an official I do not hear what players say to each other all the time, but address the situation if I think things are getting out of hand.

Once again, do what you want to do or feel it best. I will do the same. I just do not feel that behavior of coaches is on the schools and administrators mostly and if they do something that is obvious it will be addressed by me appropriately. but then again I just said that I have other options than giving a T for every bad behavior just like I would in other parts of the game.

Peace

Here's the list. It's 40 years old now, and I'd say five of them would routinely get bleeped on broadcast TV. (I've heard the other two pass.)

Rut and JMF, out of curiosity, how do your locales handle racial, religious, or sexual slurs? (Here, you're done. I've never had to deal with it.)

I guess that depends on what you mean by racial slurs? Not all comments are recognized by all of people outside of a community. I have no idea what certain communities say to each other that someone outside of that community might be offended by but my own.

And if you want what people have said to me, absolutely nothing. I handle it how I see fit if you are talking about what teammates might say to each other. If you are looking for what opponents say to each other, well that is a totally different situation. Not much tolerance for the latter.

Peace

There will definitely be fewer people in the gym for a freshman game, which is exactly why it's so much easier to hear. Therefore, why I'd be more likely to go get it. The rest of your post really doesn't apply to the OP, which is what I'm talking about. It was a given that both officials were present and having a quick meeting with the captains before an overtime period.

They also pull their pants down below their hips, but wait...we don't allow that on the court, do we...so that's a stupid argument and holds no water.

As someone who works with kids "that age" every weekday, I can tell you that they absolutely know what words are "wrong" and will use those words only I situations where they know they can get away with it. To have a coach use that language on a player is crossing a line, and if he does it loud enough to be heard by us on the court, he needs to be rung up immediately.

And the "here in my part of the country" argument against enforcing that standard is tired and overused.

I hear kids use it all the time. Doesn't make it acceptable. All the more reason I wouldn't put up with a coach using it on them in a freshman game within easy earshot of me. It's not the NBA, or even the NCAA. It's supposed to be an extension of school. Like someone else said earlier, would you accept a teacher using this kind of language in the classroom? What makes it OK here?

And johnny d, as amusing as your post was, I assure you this has nothing to do with the thickness of my skin, if you were talking to me. How would you feel about "that ref johnny d *ucking sucks!" from the coach to the players loud enough for you or your partner to "overhear?" Would you still not care what goes on in the huddle? After all, these fragile freshmen hear and say these words many times each day.

Well considering that no one in my entire career, including the NF has never defined what language in specifically inappropriate or not, then I guess we will go on disagreeing out this issue.

And the argument is worse to say, "I do it this way, so we all must do it" is even sillier and played out point of view if you ask me.

I would think "freaking a$$" might be considered over the top to some too. I had a parent want me to T a coach because he said "God Dagit." I told the parent, "Not everyone believes in God." The problem is everyone is using a different standard for different reasons. Then again that is life and some of you really need to get used to that fact.

Peace

Again you are missing the point about acceptability. I see officials allow all kinds of things I do not find acceptable to me, you do not see me getting upset with them when they handle situations a different way. There are other things illegal in the rules and I do not even see officials address or try to correct, but inappropriate language all of a sudden has to be the big bad rule we must enforce? :rolleyes:

Again, a Technical foul does not solve everything. Some things can be addressed in another way and accomplish the same thing. This is sports, not social justice arena.

Actually NCAA players in my experience are usually better behaved than HS players. Those officials at that level do not do or say the things I see regularly at the HS level because those officials will quickly put them in their place. You think kids are getting the the faces of Teddy Valentine, Karl Hess or Jim Burr?

Peace

I'm only guessing, but I would bet the areas where you'll get grief for calling this are far outnumbered by the areas where more trouble would come for letting this crap go.

True, and I would not presume to advise anyone one way or the other here, but, apparently, in your area, you don't believe much in tact, either.

Guys that brag about having thick skin often need to be told to "grow a *ucking pair."

That incident happen over 15 years ago and not in the area that I live now. But with that being said, how do you know I do not go to church or that I am involved in my church more than you or anyone else here? But that is why this conversation is overall stupid, because this has little to do with morals.

Peace

I have to ask.

What does your church attendance or involvement have to do with jar's post?

I have a better question......
 

And what does believing in God have to do with this issue?

Peace

I'm not missing your point. I got it in your first post. I was describing how I would handle things in answer to the OP. I'm not getting upset with you for handling situations in a different way either. You handle them how you handle them. As do I.

I never said a technical foul solves everything. I said in this particular, narrow example that is how I would handle it.

No, I don't. But as I've mentioned several times now, I'm talking about a freshman in high school level.

So I have to handle things the way you do so you can feel better? You are not confident in your own standards and ability to decide what goes too far?

I also did not realize the rule was different for the Freshman level. I guess that is a different standard too?

Peace

Oh, I can think of a couple of places! :D


http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...es/govikes.gif

Pretty sure I just said you obviously do things your way and I do them differently. I don't care if you do them my way and it won't make me feel better or worse. I don't work anywhere near you. I'm actually quite confident in my own standards and ability to decide what goes too far, like you I do it every game I work.

Do you enforce all rules the same for all levels? Call every travel you see in a middle school game? Your last two sentences are borderline silly, and you're obviously just looking for an argument.

Then if that is what I said, then why are we even debating this issue?

Do you enforce all rules the same for all levels? Call every travel you see in a middle school game? Your last two sentences are borderline silly, and you're obviously just looking for an argument.[/QUOTE]

Actually the general philosophy I take in officiating does not change during levels unless there are rules or specifics do do something differently. I call obvious violations. I do not work a lot of middle school games now, but when I did I would call what was obvious. The players have a different skill level so they are going to be smoother at certain things.

And I responded to the OP without quoting anyone. Not sure what fight I am looking for.

Peace

Not sure, you're the one who brought it in. So, what does it have to do with it?

I simply told a story about language. Not sure why it matters at this point. You guys are going to do what works for you and I will do the same. All this debating over what is appropriate or not is going to always vary. I see how different parents raise their kids, so some people obviously have different standards in those things and those things would involved language and the usage of certain language.

Peace

That doesn't mean we can't enforce community standards. Obviously, those standards are different between Chicago and, say, Salt Lake City, but some standards are more universal than others. "Fu@k" for example, is far more universally unacceptable than all but about a handful of other words.

I did not say what you can't do. If something goes too far in your mind penalize away. ;)

And I live in a suburb west of Chicago, the standards are not the same there then what they are in the city of Chicago.

Peace

During the game, standards of behavior, including language, are set by us.
We must decide what is inappropriate and unacceptable. If a parent complains about the use of God's name in vain, and the official responds to that parent in the way described above, I haven't heard anything more inappropriate than that. jmo

I'm thinking the lock on this thread is near.

Actually the conversation was a little longer than that and if that is inappropriate than that is more of the reason you and I often do not agree on things. You go to games dressed, that is inappropriate to me. It does not stop you from doing what you feel works right? So save the "We set the standard" holier-than-thou crap. As someone said earlier, we hear language in the huddle of football games all the time and no one makes a big deal out of it. We might tell the players to watch their language, but no one worth their salt goes around flagging every time we hear a bad word. If the reason for doing so is because others can hear, then OK and that makes since, but just say that is the standard. Just so you know the rules are basically the same between football and basketball when it comes to this rule and I have yet to see anyone give a T or flag someone in sport for something heard in a huddle in either sport.

Peace