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-   -   Needle, pump, gauge? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/93335-needle-pump-gauge.html)

bainsey Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:01am

Needle, pump, gauge?
 
Rather than hijack the "What's In the Bag" thread....

I had not been in the habit of carrying a needle and pump for basketball. (We do so for soccer.) I just do the "drop test," and use whatever pump is at the gym. On Friday, after my JV game, I gave the game ball to a varsity official (and fellow soccer ref), who thought the ball was overinflated. When I mentioned I didn't carry the pump/needle for basketball, he shot me a "how crazy ARE you?" grin.

I honestly didn't notice "needle" on the pre-game checklist in our manual. That's on me. Still, a needle is pretty worthless without a pump, and the electronic pumps and needles are attached at the game sites. Does anyone else always bring a needle, hand pump, and gauge?

Raymond Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:03am

Never have and probably never will.

Freddy Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:06am

Meet You Half-Way
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 868465)
Does anyone else always bring a needle, hand pump, and gauge?

This all sounds so...so...so "medical."
Don't carry pump, but do carry needle. That way, it's 50/50 that I'll look prepared for improper ball inflatage.
Never had to require a ball be pumped up, but my needle-less partner used mine just this past Thursday to take some out. First time in about five years.

BillyMac Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:17am

With Apologies To Lauren Bacall ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 868465)
A needle is pretty worthless without a pump.

You just put your lips together and blow into the needle.

JRutledge Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:19am

I only carry a needle. Usually the ball are so over-inflated that you have to take some air out of the ball. And I certainly do not want long rebounds and high dribbles. I just take a little air out of most basketballs and cannot think of a reason to inflate them. If they need inflating, we can get another ball.

Peace

grunewar Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:30am

I use the needle most at scholastic games, but, my pump comes in handy at Rec, Mens, and Church League games when there is not a "rack full" of balls to choose from.

JRutledge Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 868473)
I use the needle most at scholastic games, but, my pump comes in handy at Rec, Mens, and Church League games when there is not a "rack full" of balls to choose from.

Don't work those last list of games you mentioned. And if I did, I would play with what we got. ;)

Peace

Rich Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:55am

I worked 58 HS varsity games and above last season and had exactly two basketballs (in the 30 or so games I was the referee) that weren't over-inflated.

I carry a needle in my jacket pocket and spares in my bag.

I see no need for a pump. If the ball is under-inflated, we get a new ball.

grunewar Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 868474)
Don't work those last list of games you mentioned. And if I did, I would play with what we got. ;)

Peace

Certainly understand JRut - but, it has served me well over the yrs.

BktBallRef Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 868465)
Still, a needle is pretty worthless without a pump,...


Not if you need to let air OUT of the ball.

I don't find flat balls, I find them over inflated. A quick release of air during the introductions and we're all set.

A hot ball makes for a rough game.

Rich Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 868481)
Not if you need to let air OUT of the ball.

I don't find flat balls, I find them over inflated. A quick release of air during the introductions and we're all set.

I go straight for the game ball after the captain's meeting. Usually it's because the book isn't quite ready for me and I need something else to do. :)

BillyMac Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:02pm

With Apologies To Jerry Seinfeld ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 868481)
A quick release of air during the introductions and we're all set.

Did you ever notice how bad the air coming out of a basketball stinks?

Freddy Mon Dec 24, 2012 01:01pm

Didn't Think It Was Me
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 868484)
Did you ever notice how bad the air coming out of a basketball stinks?

Oh, it's the ball . . . :o

DRJ1960 Mon Dec 24, 2012 01:12pm

odd...
 
I must be the only one who is handed balls that barely bounce.....:confused:

bainsey Mon Dec 24, 2012 01:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRJ1960 (Post 868498)
I must be the only one who [has] handed balls that barely bounce.....:confused:

You're not. I have to inflate basketballs more often than not.

Rich Mon Dec 24, 2012 01:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 868500)
You're not. I have to inflate basketballs more often than not.

Really? I've had exactly one underinflated ball in the 11 years I've officiated in my current location.

BLydic Mon Dec 24, 2012 02:03pm

And the pin fits ever so snuggly in my spare fox 40, making it very easy to locate.

Camron Rust Mon Dec 24, 2012 02:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 868505)
Really? I've had exactly one underinflated ball in the 11 years I've officiated in my current location.

Agree....they're just not common. I carry a needle and use it a few times a year.

rockyroad Mon Dec 24, 2012 02:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 868479)

I see no need for a pump. If the ball is under-inflated, we get a new ball.

Why not just get a new ball if the game ball is over-inflated also?

I have never carried a needle to any "school" game...they have lots of basketballs to choose from.

Adam Mon Dec 24, 2012 02:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 868500)
You're not. I have to inflate basketballs more often than not.

Must be that Canadian air.

JRutledge Mon Dec 24, 2012 02:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 868514)
Why not just get a new ball if the game ball is over-inflated also?

I have never carried a needle to any "school" game...they have lots of basketballs to choose from.

How many basketball are we going to test? Better yet, where are we going to choose the basketball from? The rack? Get a new ball out of the AD's office?

It is just easier to accept the ball that they give you and take a small sample of air out of the ball. I just do not like it when a basketball bounces over your head off a single bounce.

Peace

Raymond Mon Dec 24, 2012 02:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 868514)
Why not just get a new ball if the game ball is over-inflated also?

I have never carried a needle to any "school" game...they have lots of basketballs to choose from.

This is what I do.

bainsey Mon Dec 24, 2012 02:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 868505)
Really? I've had exactly one underinflated ball in the 11 years I've officiated in my current location.

Hmmm.... you're not alone here, either. Could be me.

Drop test that I've been doing: Drop the ball from eye level. On its way down, flex your arm. It the ball bounces high enough to touch your arm, it's inflated enough.

Rich Mon Dec 24, 2012 03:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 868514)
Why not just get a new ball if the game ball is over-inflated also?

I have never carried a needle to any "school" game...they have lots of basketballs to choose from.

If the game ball is overinflated, quite a few of the rest probably are, too.

Actually, I like it this way because I don't have to get anyone else involved -- I have a basketball, I remove some air, we're ready to go.

rockyroad Mon Dec 24, 2012 05:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 868519)
How many basketball are we going to test? Better yet, where are we going to choose the basketball from? The rack? Get a new ball out of the AD's office?

It is just easier to accept the ball that they give you and take a small sample of air out of the ball. I just do not like it when a basketball bounces over your head off a single bounce.

Peace

You don't choose the game ball...it is sitting there at the table. If its not right, a simple "Coach, we are gonna need a different ball" takes care of it.

Not that, big of a deal either way, just don't feel a need to carry extra crap around with me that I don't need and will probably just lose anyway.

JRutledge Mon Dec 24, 2012 05:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 868543)
You don't choose the game ball...it is sitting there at the table. If its not right, a simple "Coach, we are gonna need a different ball" takes care of it.

Not that, big of a deal either way, just don't feel a need to carry extra crap around with me that I don't need and will probably just lose anyway.

Well by rule you approve the game ball. Also if I do not like the ball, I can ask for another one. Very, very rare, that has happened. Sometimes the ball is not at the table and they ask to pull it out of a bunch of balls on a rack or bag. That happens a lot especially at the lower levels. And I do not go to the coach, I tell the table if I need another ball.

And honestly I do not care really if you or others feel you need a needle or not. It is your game and just like I could give a damn what kind of whistle you use also. The reason I use the needle is very personal to prevent the ball bouncing around at a fast rate and give a little. If that is not what you like, it is not my game to tell you what to do. Just like I do not even teach people or require folks to bring them when they are working and I am observing. But I have found those that do this tend to like to take air out of an over-inflated ball.

Again, not a big deal at all.

Peace

Adam Mon Dec 24, 2012 05:42pm

And here we are at the inevitable result:
You're wrong, but I don't really care that you're wrong. You should do it my way, though.

HawkeyeCubP Mon Dec 24, 2012 06:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 868543)
Not that, big of a deal either way, just don't feel a need to carry extra crap around with me that I don't need and will probably just lose anyway.

I'm required by one of my manuals to carry it. And I don't ignore that manual too often.

twocentsworth Mon Dec 24, 2012 06:44pm

Never carried a needle.

The only people I've ever see carry a needle are over 60yrs old!

If the ball is flat or too hard, I simply get a new ball....it's not that difficult to accomplish. (btw 75% of the time it is too flat).

NEVER thought to carry a pump.

Rich Mon Dec 24, 2012 07:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 868543)
You don't choose the game ball...it is sitting there at the table. If its not right, a simple "Coach, we are gonna need a different ball" takes care of it.

Not that, big of a deal either way, just don't feel a need to carry extra crap around with me that I don't need and will probably just lose anyway.

I've never lost a needle. Goes in the jacket pocket. Since I fold/store my jacket inside out and never wash it, it stays right in the pocket.

I'm anal about the amount of air in the ball, I guess. Ideally, I want it to be at the low end of the range and I make sure it's there for every game I'm the R.

If you don't do it, no big deal.

BillyMac Mon Dec 24, 2012 08:27pm

Don't Needle Me ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 868553)
I've never lost a needle. Goes in the jacket pocket. Since I fold/store my jacket inside out and never wash it, it stays right in the pocket.

Funny you should mention this. Up until this season, I've used the same IAABO jacket for the past twenty-five plus years. And I had the same needle in my pocket for twenty-five plus years. Never lost it. It was tarnished after all this time. This year, our local board switched to a "local board" jacket. The pockets aren't anywhere as deep as the pockets on my old IAABO jacket. I've only been officiating for about three weeks and I've already lost three needles, the original tarnished one, and two additional ones. I actually had to go down to our local discount store and buy a pack of needles a few days ago. There's no way that I'm going to lose another one, so I've used a piece of duct tape to tape the needle to the inside of my jacket. Stupid jacket.

rockyroad Mon Dec 24, 2012 08:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 868546)
And here we are at the inevitable result:
You're wrong, but I don't really care that you're wrong. You should do it my way, though.

Some things just shouldn't surprise us anymore, you know...

rockyroad Mon Dec 24, 2012 08:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 868553)
I've never lost a needle. Goes in the jacket pocket. Since I fold/store my jacket inside out and never wash it, it stays right in the pocket.

I'm anal about the amount of air in the ball, I guess. Ideally, I want it to be at the low end of the range and I make sure it's there for every game I'm the R.

If you don't do it, no big deal.

I think I said it wasn't a big deal, too...I honestly have never had a problem getting a different ball when needed.

BillyMac Mon Dec 24, 2012 08:39pm

All Bow Down To The "Game Ball" ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 868578)
I honestly have never had a problem getting a different ball when needed.

We've got a few schools in our area that have "game balls". These are balls that are not used in practice, are not used during warmups, and never come into contact with the other "unwashed" basketballs. The "game ball" is stored in the athletic director's office, under lock, and key, until the game is about to begin, and then it comes out of storage and is given to the officials. If it's over inflated, then it's real easy to stick it with a needle. If it's under inflated, which it seldom, if ever, is, then we just pick an "unwashed" ball from the rack.

DRJ1960 Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:41pm

Does anyone give Coaches enough credit to believe that they deliberatly inflate/deflate the game ball to gain a small advantage for their team?

Adam Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:52pm

No, I don't.

Raymond Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRJ1960 (Post 868583)
Does anyone give Coaches enough credit to believe that they deliberatly inflate/deflate the game ball to gain a small advantage for their team?

I worked with a crew chief who said he did this when he was coaching.

bainsey Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac
You just put your lips together and blow into the needle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 868553)
I'm anal about the amount of air in the ball...

I think I prefer Billy's method.

JRutledge Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 868546)
And here we are at the inevitable result:
You're wrong, but I don't really care that you're wrong. You should do it my way, though.

Not sure I agree with that take. I think people do different things. Officiating is like a lot of things in life, people do different things and that is OK. ;)

Peace

JRutledge Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 868549)
Never carried a needle.

The only people I've ever see carry a needle are over 60yrs old!

Well I am far from that age and I know many younger than me that do the same. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 868549)
If the ball is flat or too hard, I simply get a new ball....it's not that difficult to accomplish. (btw 75% of the time it is too flat).

Not true in my experience, they are usually over-inflated. Kind of why many carry a needle in the first place. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by twocentsworth (Post 868549)
NEVER thought to carry a pump.

I have not either. Like I said almost never need one.

Peace

Adam Tue Dec 25, 2012 01:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 868592)
Well I am far from that age and I know many younger than me that do the same. ;)



Not true in my experience, they are usually over-inflated. Kind of why many carry a needle in the first place. ;)



I have not either. Like I said almost never need one.

Peace

I've never carried one, but at times have wished I had one. I'm getting one before my next game. Most of the local big dogs around here do. And I have seen exactly one ball that needed more air.

amusedofficial Tue Dec 25, 2012 05:28am

I'm not real big on being the home team equipment manager. They need to provide a ball that meets the rules. I don't mark or sweep the courts, set up the clock, sell the hot dogs or take tickets either.

JRutledge Tue Dec 25, 2012 05:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by amusedofficial (Post 868602)
I'm not real big on being the home team equipment manager. They need to provide a ball that meets the rules. I don't mark or sweep the courts, set up the clock, sell the hot dogs or take tickets either.

It would take you much longer to get another ball or have someone provide one than it takes to let air out of the ball. Probably does not take more than 5 seconds. ;)

Peace

BktBallRef Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:00am

A pissing contest over whether to adjust the air in the ball or get another ball?

"I'm not real big on being the home team equipment manager."

Good grief.

Raymond Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:56am

I just know nothing in this thread has convinced me to do anything differently than I'm doing now. ;)

just another ref Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 868590)
I think I prefer Billy's method.

+ a bunch :D

Rich Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by amusedofficial (Post 868602)
I'm not real big on being the home team equipment manager. They need to provide a ball that meets the rules. I don't mark or sweep the courts, set up the clock, sell the hot dogs or take tickets either.

Really?

What do you think looks more awkward from the perspective of game management and takes longer, to boot?

(1) Asking for a series of basketballs and finding that one that meets the specifications OR

(2) Taking about 10-15 seconds and removing a few pounds of air from a basketball that's sitting on the scorer's table?

I work NCAA football and we are given balls before the game starts, usually in the locker room. One of our duties is to ensure the balls have the proper amount of air. We do that by measuring the balls and adding or removing air from them. Wouldn't think of doing otherwise.

I don't think this is a huge deal, but having an attitude about removing a bit of air from a basketball strikes me as being a bit silly.

just another ref Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:32pm

I was waiting for somebody to mention worst case scenario, but nobody did.

Ball is overinflated. "No problem, I have a needle right here."

And then you let out too much.

I'm sure it's happened.

:o

JRutledge Tue Dec 25, 2012 02:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 868626)
I was waiting for somebody to mention worst case scenario, but nobody did.

Ball is overinflated. "No problem, I have a needle right here."

And then you let out too much.

I'm sure it's happened.

:o

Seriously, never happen to me. You do not sit there and just let air out constantly. You let a little out, then stop. Then you test the ball. Let a little out again if needed and usually you are ready to go.

Peace

rockyroad Tue Dec 25, 2012 04:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 868624)
Really?

I don't think this is a huge deal, but having an attitude about removing a bit of air from a basketball strikes me as being a bit silly.

Ok.

And others of us think that having an attitude about simply asking for another ball is silly.

So what?

JRutledge Tue Dec 25, 2012 04:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 868643)
Ok.

And others of us think that having an attitude about simply asking for another ball is silly.

So what?

Again, it is not about just asking for another ball, it is about what it takes to get another ball. To get another ball I might have to go through 2 or 3 people just to find another ball. It takes seconds to let air out. Again this might be an area issue as we often figure out in these discussions, but it would take several minutes to get another ball as they do not always use the basketballs in the rack. The game ball is a specific ball used.

Peace

Rich Tue Dec 25, 2012 04:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 868646)
Again, it is not about just asking for another ball, it is about what it takes to get another ball. To get another ball I might have to go through 2 or 3 people just to find another ball. It takes seconds to let air out. Again this might be an area issue as we often figure out in these discussions, but it would take several minutes to get another ball as they do not always use the basketballs in the rack. The game ball is a specific ball used.

Peace

That's exactly it. Then they have to find a game quality ball. That might be one of the balls being used during warmups or maybe it's a ball in another location. Or they may wish to argue that the ball's perfectly fine, what's wrong with it? And then I have to wait for the ball so I can test it. And when *it*'s over-inflated, then what?

In the meantime, my method involves about 15 seconds of removing air, at most.

grunewar Tue Dec 25, 2012 09:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 868633)
Seriously, never happen to me. You do not sit there and just let air out constantly. You let a little out, then stop. Then you test the ball. Let a little out again if needed and usually you are ready to go.

Peace

+1

Only happened a few times. Not a big problem.

rockyroad Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 868653)
That's exactly it. Then they have to find a game quality ball. That might be one of the balls being used during warmups or maybe it's a ball in another location. Or they may wish to argue that the ball's perfectly fine, what's wrong with it? And then I have to wait for the ball so I can test it. And when *it*'s over-inflated, then what?

In the meantime, my method involves about 15 seconds of removing air, at most.

I have never - at any of the levels I have worked - had any problem getting a different ball within 30 seconds of telling them we needed a different ball.

Again, do it your way. I have no problem with that. Just stop with the attitude that those who don't do it that way are in some way doing it wrong.

JRutledge Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 868674)
I have never - at any of the levels I have worked - had any problem getting a different ball within 30 seconds of telling them we needed a different ball.

Again, do it your way. I have no problem with that. Just stop with the attitude that those who don't do it that way are in some way doing it wrong.

This is why this is probably an area thing. It would be difficult to get another ball for the reasons Rich stated earlier in many places I have and do currently work. Maybe you live in a place where everyone is accommodating and easy to follow instructions from an official. I can tell you arguments about obvious situations are common here. I take air out of the ball and literally no one even realizes I have done just that including many of my partners.

Peace

ODJ Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:56pm

I started carrying a needle this year. Used it twice already.
Before I'd go find one with less air. A needle is a time-saver.

tjones1 Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 868465)
Does anyone else always bring a needle, hand pump, and gauge?

No.

Yes.

maven Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 868465)
Does anyone else always bring a needle, hand pump, and gauge?

Always a needle. I've used it every time I've been R this season: a ball on the light side makes for fewer and easier rebounds, which helps the game, boys or girls.

BillyMac Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:41pm

Only Basketball Officials ???
 
Fifty-eight posts on needles? Can you believe it? Man, are we a sorry bunch, or what?

DLH17 Thu Dec 27, 2012 01:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 868788)
Fifty-eight posts on needles? Can you believe it? Man, are we a sorry bunch, or what?

At least we are passionate about being a sorry bunch. :)

Welpe Thu Dec 27, 2012 03:44pm

I can't say I've put this much thought into it. I've only had a few games where the ball was obviously out of spec. At 5'10", hold the ball a few inches above my head and drop it. If it bounces up lower than my chest, we're good as far as I'm concerned.

Ed Maeder Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:35pm

I have all three in my bag. I carry a needle in my jacket and the pump and gauge are in my bag in the locker room. Not much good there unless they give us the game ball in the locker room, which does happen on occasion. I would have to dust off the pump and gauge though, as I can't remember the last time I used them in Basketball.

Scuba_ref Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:11pm

Interesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maven (Post 868786)
Always a needle. I've used it every time I've been R this season: a ball on the light side makes for fewer and easier rebounds, which helps the game, boys or girls.

Here the common thought is we like to use a harder ball for girls - especially at the lower levels - to make the rebounds bounce farther to where there are fewer girls to help eliminate some of the many jump balls.

DRJ1960 Fri Dec 28, 2012 08:22pm

influence
 
Why does our preference or desire for a certain ball type matter? Simply because I like a "flatter" or "bouncy" ball is irrelevant.

Rich Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRJ1960 (Post 868927)
Why does our preference or desire for a certain ball type matter? Simply because I like a "flatter" or "bouncy" ball is irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant -- the ball must bounce within a certain range, after all -- and since it's our job to ensure the ball is in that range, we can make it at the high end or the low end of the range if we so choose.

BktBallRef Sat Dec 29, 2012 01:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scuba_ref (Post 868890)
Here the common thought is we like to use a harder ball for girls - especially at the lower levels - to make the rebounds bounce farther to where there are fewer girls to help eliminate some of the many jump balls.

Really? We only have one jump ball per game _ unless we go to overtime. :rolleyes:

Camron Rust Sat Dec 29, 2012 02:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scuba_ref (Post 868890)
Here the common thought is we like to use a harder ball for girls - especially at the lower levels - to make the rebounds bounce farther to where there are fewer girls to help eliminate some of the many jump balls.

Seems like you'd want softer ball so they wouldn't bounce off the rim so are with the hope that they'd go in the basket rather than bouncing out.


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