Player removal
 

A12 goes to the line for 2 shots, umpire steps in and tells A12 to tuck his shirt in, he refuses because as soon as he shots the free throws, he is being substituted for. He is told again, but does not do it, umpire steps in again and tell the coach that he needs a replacement to shoot the free throws because A12 is sent to the bench. Coach states that we as officials can not do that when they are to shot free throws, correct or incorrect and where in the case book or rule book does it state that?

Technical foul to A12 for unsportsmanlike conduct. Clear the lane, A12 shoots his free throws, sub for A12, B shoots the technical free throws, B's ball at the division line.

If A12 still doesn't tuck in the shirt after the first T, a second T will put him on the bench, and his sub will shoot the free throws.

While a technical may be an appropriate response, the referee's response in the OP is not incorrect:

3-4-5

ART. 5 . . . A player not wearing the pants/skirt properly and above the hips and/or a player not tucking in a team jersey (front and back) designed to be worn inside the pants/skirt, shall be directed to leave the game as in 3-3-4; a charged time-out shall not alter this requirement.

And a player who is due FTs with uniform sendoff is to shoot the FTs with the lane cleared and will then be sent out after the last FT. The ONLY times someone else shoots the FTs is when the shooter is injured or DQd.

3.3.5 SITUATION A: B1 fouls A1. Just before A1 goes to the line for a one-andone, the official observes: (a) A1 pull the shirt out of his/her pants; or (b) A1’s pants being worn below the hips. RULING: In both (a) and (b), A1 will be directed to put the shirt in the pants or pull up the pants, and must leave the game immediately following his/her last free throw(s). The lane is cleared for the free throw and Team B is awarded the ball for a throw-in, whether or not the last free throw is successful. COMMENT: A charged time-out by Team A does not alter the requirement for A1 to leave the game

I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that in this scenario the player tucked in his shirt or pulled up his pants before shooting his free throws. What if he continues to refuse? Would you then issue a technical foul? Next question, after the player shoots his 1 or 2 FTs, can the other team run the end line? I again assume that if he makes it they can if he misses, they can't.

I would wait until it is all done and then take him out of the game. I guess you could give them a T for refusing to follow a request of an official, but that is too extreme to me in this situation.

I also think you could technically remove the player for not being ready too, but then again there are a lot of ways to send a message. Just wait until a dead ball (even after a basket) and take the player out of the game. Not sure you need to go through all that other stuff to make a point.

Peace

The refusal is not covered in the case play. Once the request has been made and the lane has been cleared, which does follow the case play, it does not state if the player did or did not comply. It appears that the player WILL comply. If he does not, I suppose that a T could be called on the player. But, there is no provision for sending him out and having a replacement shooter.

Put me in the camp of not handing out a T. If the player doesn't want to comply, clear the lane, shoot the free throws, then have the player replaced.

A T is justified, and I really don't like the idea of letting a kid get away with ignoring the official's directive. I'm probably just clearing the lane and shooting, but if he's been a problem child in the game, I'm letting his coach know the T is coming. The coach is being a dick in the OP, so I'm not surprised junior is.

Worse case, the kid gets two Ts and his sub can come in to shoot.

I'd have to actually be there to know for sure.

I tend to agree here. Otherwise, the kid is showing up the official and the official is letting him get away with it. Even giving the kid a "short leash" for the balance of the game is not a solution. My only question: Was this kid doing this the whole game? If so, sending him out early would have prevented this situation from even occurring.

According to the case play, that's what you're supposed to do if the player DOES comply: clear the lane, tuck it in, shoot the free throws, replace the player. If a player defies an official, what else is there but a T?

Case play never says if the player complies or not...either way, he's going to have a seat on the bench.

It doesn't explicitly say so but it is the assumed conclusion from being directed to do so.

I'm pretty sure that if you T a kid (or send him to the bench) in a hs game for not tucking in his jersey in my hs assn, that might be the last time you work any games.

Hence my comment that this incident was likely not the first time the jersey was untucked. If he had been sent to the bench earlier in the game, then he likely would not have found himself in that situation. No kid likes to be subbed for. And no coach likes to have to sub for him. It usually only takes one time per team for them to get the picture.

I am sorry to hear that your association consists of a bunch of wimps that are afraid to enforce the rules.

MTD, Sr.

All I mean is the kid better have told that he's not tucking in his unifrom after u have asked him to before u send him out. And he better say some T worthy stuff loud enough for all to hear before you T him.

T worthy here is "no" after being directed to tuck. I have only sent one player to the bench for this, and I had no trouble with him the rest of that or the next game.

I will add, though, that if I decide to draw this line, it's not going to be the first time I've dealt with that kid that game, and again, the coach will be informed of the ramifications of continued beligerence from his player. But once the line is drawn, you have to have some spine.

Sounds to me that you worry way too much about what others are going to think about you handling what needs to be handled.

If a kid is instructed to do something and refuses to do it, that alone is enough to justify a technical foul by rule. Whether that's the way you want to handle it is up to you, of course, but it's not something I'd lose sleep over.

I didn't read every post closely, but I have a question for those that aren't going to give the kid a T. Actually two questions.

1. What rule are you using to clear the lane when the kid shoots? Sorry if I am not reading this correctly (I'm tired right now), but I think I am understanding this correctly.
2. What would you do if the kid finished shooting, tucked in his shirt and both the player and coach made a huge fuss saying he/she shouldn't come out of the game? It could eventually result in a T.

1. 3.3.5 Situation A tells you to clear the lane.
2. Too late...explain to coach why he's coming out (his player didn't listen the first time), tell the coach he has 20 seconds and go from there.

Can you copy/paste the case play? I'm in a secret location without books...really...kind of...:D

As far as your answer to my second question, what are you going to do if the coach doesn't have a sub after 20 seconds and what conversation - if any - are you going to entertain during the 20 seconds?

Someone has already posted the case book play earlier in the thread. ;)


And I would do what I'd regularly do if a coach doesn't have a replacement after 20 seconds. If he wants to push it and doesn't have a sub ready, then he's going to get a T. I'm not going to entertain anything during the 20 seconds. I'll give him an explanation BEFORE I start the 20 but he's not using that 20 to complain to me.