Offensive Leg Kick Out on 3pt Shot
 

I have seen this call quite a few times in the past, so can someone more experienced please explain the rationale behind it? I saw a play that reminded me of it in the first half of the Okla. St. vs. Va. Tech game today, it was not exactly as the one below, but the one below is where my question comes from. I will do my best to explain it well:

A1 has both feet on the ground preparing to shoot a 3-pointer, B1 is running to contest the shot in an established path perpendicular to A1 that will run him across A1's face. A1 rises to shoot and kicks his leg forward into the path of B1, B1 hits the leg with no other contact and is called for the defensive foul.

Why is that not an offensive foul or a no-call?

Added by APG for those reading the thread from the beginning:

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I've seen it infrequently on the HS level.
A. As to the former, it is.
B. As to the latter, it isn't.

All speculation.
 

You need to ask the official that made the call. No one here is going to know for sure why anyone makes a call unless you ask them. I also did not see the play, and even if I did I would have the same answer. Maybe the official felt the defender did more than run into the leg?

Peace

That's what my feeling was as well, just wanted more experienced input.

Point taken, but change it from a play seen to strictly being based on the now hypothetical scenario as written, should that be a defensive foul?

Don't take my response as from one that fulfills that criteria. I just happened to be the one who had time to answer most quickly. Responses from those from whom your really need to hear have or will most assuredly follow mine. :)

I got guff from the coach when I banged the shooter for an offensive foul on a play similar to what you have described. But I'm confident the illegal contact was caused not by the defense. The shooter "hindered an opponent from performing normal defensive...movements" (4-19-1), i.e., running in front of a guy whose leg was sticking out there at a 90 degree angle from his body. That seems to fit 10-6-1, "...by bending his/her body into other than a normal position".

Perhaps you could ask APG to post the play assuming you know approximately when it occurred in the game.

It was 10:05 in the first half, Okla. St. v. Va. Tech, 12/1/12 on ESPN3 (or WatchESPN or whatever its called now).

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Thanks

Could be a symptom of watching.it on a four inch screen, but I'm not convinced the.defender wouldn't have hit the shooter anyway.

This video might be a poor representation of the scenario I laid out in text, it more or less triggered me remembering that I have seen the call I described many times in the past and never being able to justify it by the rulebook.

I do not see a foul.

Ok, you've got a defender moving towards the shooter, who has no vertical restriction, and tripping the shooter. (There's your rule justification.)

If the shooter stuck his arm out as the defender went by and made contact, would you call a foul on the defender?

Possibly.....the ball that is being shot is often at the end of those arm.

For me, it would really depend on how far out that leg was extended. There is some amount that i would consider reasonable for a given shot and some greater amount that I would not.

In the video shown above with as much as I could see in the limited views, I wouldn't call an offensive foul and would probably call one on the defender. The shooters foot was not unreasonably extended as Reggie Miller frequently did and the defender did, with no semblance of LGP, move such that he clipped his foot and cause him to fall.

I have an easy call on the defender who did not have LGP moving into the shooter.

Why in the world is the L making that call on a three point shot???

Dang it. rockyroad was reading my mind. That was the 1st thing I though. Why is lead looking there? That's is why they pay him the big bucks and I am doing lower level High School games.

How the hell is an arm that's extended out holding a ball that's already been shot???????

Because the Lead is asked to take a look at those plays right in front of them. And many supervisors want the lead to make sure from their angle are not getting hit on the shot at the NCAA Men's level.

Peace

That wasn't right in front of him...he moved out there and took that play for no valid reason.

You are missing the point. It happen right on the end line and if he is positioned properly anyway, that is where he would be located. That is the way it is taught. Now you can disagree and that is fine, but just stating what is taught and expected at that level. In the HS game this is not the case often, but there are many that suggest the Lead should be there to take a peak on a shooter near the end line. Part of the logic is if the player gets fouled, who are they going to say should have seen the contact?

Peace

Where did anyone say the ball was necessarily already shot? It may have been, but I've see the action being talked about just as much while the shooter still has the ball.

Why on earth does the lead have a whistle on this play? If he is watching the shooter, who has eyes in the post?

Gonna have to disagree here...this was an end line throw-in, and the L was inside the thrower...as soon as the ball was thrown in, the L started walking toward the shooter, and made the call from a horrible position. I understand that if the L was already in "wide angle" ( if it is still called that) that he could take a look at the play to help out. This L completely left his PCA and went out there and made a questionable call out of his area. And that seems to happen a lot in NCAA Men's coverage. Jmo...

+1

Well you can disagree, but I am telling you what is being taught and instructed to do. It is considered the secondary coverage of the Lead by many. I got to enough of those camps to know what I have been told by guys you actually see on TV. I first heard this by a guy that won the darn Official of the Year Award recently. And if I had not seen this called a few times I would not have believed how wide spread this is practices. And it is not necessary to completely leave your primary to make these calls either. But I do not see why this is such a big deal, this would be in the PCA of a Woman's Official's Lead.

Peace

Two points and then I will move on...

1) Of course it would be the L's call in an NCAA-W game...it would be in the L's PCA...and the L would have been on the outside of the thrower, not the inside like the L was in this game.

2) The L DID leave his primary...he completely ignored the two players at the elbow and the thrower and defender who went cutting across the key. He turned almost sideways and walked out toward the shooter. And there was no reason for him to do that as the T would have had that play.

All I am telling you is what is taught and accepted. I did not say I agreed with it or that it should have been done in this particular play. You asked a question and I answered it based on my experience going to camps. And that is the reason he took a peak at that play and eventually made a call. Not sure why that was hard to understand? Oh well.

Peace