When "shall" means "must"??
 

Free throw lineup: 8-1-4c....first marked lane spaces... "SHALL be occupied by opponents of the free thrower" Does this mean it is a violation if both of these spaces are not taken? EX: A1 has two shots coming, B HC takes the few seconds on the first shot to huddle his team on sideline for quick instruction, then sending them out to the spaces for second shot. First shot is missed..A1 gets another for B lane violation?

"Shall" is most often used to be synonymous with "must" (it can also be the first person future tense of the verb "to be").

But, it's not a violation (since it's not following a time out). ;)

Yes, it is a violation if the first marked lane space (the very first spot is always unoccupied now) is not occupied by the opponent of the shooter.

My advice would be to always make sure you have guys lined up correctly before administering the free throw.

Twist And Shout ...
 

Let's take it up a notch. It's also a violation is the "first" space is occupied by a teammate of the free throw shooter, actually, I believe that it's a double violation, one, because the teammate is there, and two, because the opponent isn't there.

Don't Think So...
 

Don't think 10.1.5C agrees with you. It's not a violation. It's a T, if merited.

10.1.5C: "...(after a foul is reported)...(b) two B players are not occupying the first two marked spaces next to the end line as required. RULING: ... In (b), Team B will be directed to occupy the required spaces. If there is a delay, a team technical foul shall be charged to team B."

I blew this two years ago by giving a DoG warning instead of a T when the coach insisted on keeping his five players by him near his bench while we were preparing for the opposing team to shoot free throws on the other end.

You simply don't start the free throw until you make sure the defense is there.

When "simply" means "shoulda". Agreed, that's what you would have wanted, but in case of a screw-up, like not getting those guys there or if the coach just wants to talk to one of the two guys he's wants in the spots, do you wait on him? Or, if you are the administering official and you bounce the ball to the shooter and then realize something doesn't look right...while the shots on the way and then missed, you're wracking your brain to remember what to do.

If I'm administering the free throw, I always check to see if I have ten players, the first two spots are filled, and they are properly lined up.

There are 5 correctable errors... 4 involve free throws. Make sure you take your time.

Hell no, you don't wait on him.

Doesn't he have 4 other players that can occupy those two spots?????

You give a reasonable opportunity to get two players in the spot. If they continue to delay, you whistle the T.

Well, then you've screwed up. I wouldn't call the T because the FT hasn't been delayed. But I probably would call a violaion if the FT is missed.

I agree, however I am going to get the coach and tell him we need 2 guys on the blocks. Just seems that this situation can be prevented, if we want it to.

that's what I was looking for, could a violation be called even if ref "screwed up" and didnt be sure both spots were taken by opponents of the shooter?

Use good game management. "Coach, I need these two spots filled." "Coach, if I don't get two players here, it will be a T."

(It's never gone further than that.)

Resumption Of Play ???
 

Even if it's not after an intermission, or a timeout? If it is not after a timeout, don't we just use the resumption of pay procedure, put the ball at the disposal of the free thrower, and then just let the chips fall where they may?

Not for this situation. There's no provision.

Different procedure if after a time out ...

10.1.5 SITUATION A:

A1 is fouled by B1 during an unsuccessful try and is awarded two free throws. Team B requests and is granted a charged 60-second time-out. Team B disregards the 15-second warning signal and the signal ending the time-out and is still huddling with their coach at the end of the charged time-out.

RULING: The official shall administer the first free throw using the resumption-of-play procedure and a violation occurs if it is missed. If two B players are not in the required position when the official is ready to put the ball in play for the substitute throw, a delay of game technical foul will be assessed. If the first attempt is good, the same procedure is used for the second. (9-1-2; 10-1-5b)

Agreed, but Billy wanted to use it without a timeout.

Ahhh ... I see. Then tell Billy to stop it.

It seems 10.1.5c says the same, just no timeout is mentioned and neither is a violation.

We've tried.

After a TO (or intermission -- but I can't figure out how you'd have FTs with the lane filled after an intermission) -- use the resumption of play procedure if the lower spaces aren't filled.

Not after a TO -- lower spaces must be filled or it's a T.

(The same is true for the FT shooter.)

If At First You Don't Succeed ...
 

Shut up.

Ok, this made me actually laugh out L.

Who Was That Masked Forum Member ???
 

Then my work here is done. Hi-yo Silver! Away!

In your second scenario (not after a TO) when would you assess the T? After the shooter is bounced the ball? After he/she takes the first shot? Is it also a violation, in so much that if he/she misses the first shot and THEN the T is called, that the first shot is re-taken, followed by the second, followed by the two shots for the T? Sounds like a healthly penalty for a ref screwup...realizing that we are not giving the T unless we've asked B players to get in the spots, or given a few seconds at least for them to get there.

Pretty sure that is not even remotely what he is indicating. If you ask the coach to get 2 players in those spots and he refuses or ignores the request, then the T. For me, this would only happen if I've exhausted all reasonable attempts to get the coach to comply.

Exactly. It's a T for delaying the game. So, it has to be called before the ball is given to the shooter (otherwise it isn't delaying the game). Since there isn't any FT attempt, there can't be any violation.

If you call, and report the T, and the coach *still* doesn't send two players to the lower blocks, then it's another T.

Your game has gone terribly wrong by this point.

I get that and I realize all this is preventable, but what I'm really trying to find out is what penalty is there (if any) if it does happen? Suppose it's 2-man jv game with one very inexperienced official administering the free throw and the T (guy with some years exp) has turned away for a second to speak with A HC, only to look back at free throw area in time to see A1 getting ready to let the first shot go and notices B has none or only one of the lower spaces occupied. Team A HC thinks he's knows this rule and is up yelling for a violation....T complies and lets A1 have another (first) shot...much to the protest now of B HC. Right or wrong handling of play?

Waitaminute. Doesn't the T now put you in a situation where the free throws are shot with the lane cleared?

Yes. Good point.

What a can of worms
 

Jeez...I'm beginning to regret being the OP on this, what I thought was, relatively insignificant play:rolleyes: As this holiday rolls closer, I'm just thankful that the finer game of basketball has so many debateable points. Happy Turkey Day...one and all:)

I really don't think you could give a T in this situation. 9-1-2 indicates "Teams shall properly occupy marked lane spaces according to number and space requirements as in 8-1-4.". The penalty for failure to comply is in 9-1-P2 -
2. If the violation is by the free-thrower's opponent only:
a. If the try is successful, the goal counts and the violation is disre*garded.
b. If the try is not successful, the ball becomes dead when the free throw ends, and a substitute throw shall be attempted by the same free thrower under conditions the same as for the free throw for which it is substituted.


Maybe you could give one for 10-1-5b (delaying game), but even that would be a stretch. They just keep getting a violation penalty until opponent makes both throws. Then they have to take the ball out of bounds. If they are not ready then, you really do have problems.

10-1-5b is the exact rule that allows a T to be called. Corrensponding case plays verify this.

Yeah, as I re-read it, I think you are correct.

b. Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play. See 7-5-1 and 8-1-2 for the resumption-of-play procedure to use after a time-out or the intermission between quarters. The procedure is used prior to charging a technical foul in these specific situations.