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-   -   Block/Player Control Ruling in High School BBall (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/92860-block-player-control-ruling-high-school-bball.html)

Afrosheen Tue Nov 06, 2012 09:18pm

Block/Player Control Ruling in High School BBall
 
Here's the case that I need help determining the ruling on. Any consideration is much appreciated:

A1 is driving towards the basket with the ball. B1 gains legal guarding position in front of A1 before A1 goes airborne. A1 goes airborne then adjusts his body so that his head and shoulders go past B1's torso and then there's a crash at the hips of both players causing them to fall. What is the call (no call is not an option)?

Raymond Tue Nov 06, 2012 09:22pm

If B1 has not moved after A1 went airborne then I have a PC.

In NCAA-M there is emphasis this year that collisions do not need to be to the center torso if defender stays legal.

Afrosheen Tue Nov 06, 2012 09:32pm

Despite the rule stating the following (4-7-2b)?: If a guard has obtained a legal guarding position, the player with the ball must get his/her head and shoulders past the torso of the defensive player. If contact occurs on the torso of the defensive player, the dribbler is responsible for the contact.

In the second sentence it states 'dribbler' and I'm wondering if it also applies to an airborne shooter as well. The first sentence doesn't state that, it just says the player with the ball must get his/her head and shoulders past the torso of the defensive player.

Does the college rulebook make a distinction if the airborne shooter is different than the dribbler?

deecee Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:33pm

do the words "airborne shooter" and "dribbler" mean the same thing?

Can you be an airborne shooter AND a dribbler?

If you answer these 2 then you will come to your conclusion.

As for your OP, its a PC foul. Player had legal position BEFORE offensive player went airborne. All contact is on the offensive player.

The rule was also created for a very specific contact. You are making it way more complicated than it needs to be. If your logic were to hold up then most of these plays would be a block as most players heads and shoulders will pass the torso before contact occurs.

Afrosheen Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:12pm

In the first sentence it said the player with the ball which would includes everything including airborne shooter. Why not be clear and consistent and just state the player dribbling the ball?

Secondly, why even state that the offensive player must have their head and shoulders past the defense if you believe every contact would then be a blocking foul? Seems you have contradicted yourself. The dribbler is allowed to make the defense liable for the contact if he's able to get his head and shoulders past the defensive player, but not the airborne shooter.

I actually had a play exactly like a described. So it's not me making it complicated, but the play itself with coaches requiring an astute interpretation.

Camron Rust Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 861260)

In NCAA-M there is emphasis this year that collisions do not need to be to the center torso if defender stays legal.


About time!!! There are too many people I know of that call it a block unless it is sternum to sternum.

deecee Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:34pm

This verbiage was put in for a simple reason, most notably to clear up block/charge situations between the ball handler and primary defender where both parties are moving.

If both parties are moving and there is a block/charge situation was the ball handler's head and shoulders past his defender. If that's the case then the contact is on the defender for moving INTO the offensive player's position.

In your case the defender DID NOT move into the offensive player's position and was not moving at all. He obtained his legal position on the floor and stood there. Offensive player left the ground. Who cares. Contact is on the offensive player.

This is no different than say a defender just standing there and his man beats him and then decides to just jump backwards at him with the ball. Would you call this on the offensive player or the defensive one?

Like I stated earlier, you are complicating this.

Camron Rust Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrosheen (Post 861270)
In the first sentence it said the player with the ball which would includes everything including airborne shooter. Why not be clear and consistent and just state the player dribbling the ball?

Secondly, why even state that the offensive player must have their head and shoulders past the defense if you believe every contact would then be a blocking foul? Seems you have contradicted yourself. The dribbler is allowed to make the defense liable for the contact if he's able to get his head and shoulders past the defensive player, but not the airborne shooter.

I actually had a play exactly like a described. So it's not me making it complicated, but the play itself with coaches requiring an astute interpretation.

The head and shoulders reference is simply a point that helps you mark when the any movement by the defender is likely to be a block since any such movement that results in contact can only be towards the opponent. If the defender shifts at that point and it creates contact, it will usually be a block. If the defender shifts prior to that, there is a greater chance the defender could be fully legal....not guaranteed but it very possible.

Nevadaref Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrosheen (Post 861270)
In the first sentence it said the player with the ball which would includes everything including airborne shooter. Why not be clear and consistent and just state the player dribbling the ball?

Secondly, why even state that the offensive player must have their head and shoulders past the defense if you believe every contact would then be a blocking foul? Seems you have contradicted yourself. The dribbler is allowed to make the defense liable for the contact if he's able to get his head and shoulders past the defensive player, but not the airborne shooter.

I actually had a play exactly like a described. So it's not me making it complicated, but the play itself with coaches requiring an astute interpretation.

1. Welcome to the forum.
2. An airborne shooter does NOT have the ball. Look at the definition of that term. It says that the player has released the ball.
3. Consider the principle of verticality. If one player has a legal position and an opponent jumps into that player, the decision of which person to penalize should be simple.
4. The head and shoulders past the defender clause pertains to a MOVING defender, not a stationary opponent. Because a defender with LGP is permitted by rule to be moving laterally or obliquely at the time of contact, the official must have some key element to look for in order to decide if the defender reached the spot on the court before or after the ball handler. That's what that part of the rule gives you.
5. Hope that clarifies it for you.

JRutledge Wed Nov 07, 2012 02:02am

I love the name. Welcome to the forum.

Peace

BillyMac Wed Nov 07, 2012 07:49am

Soul Train ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrosheen (Post 861270)
Afrosheen

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 861277)
I love the name.

I can almost hear the Don Cornelius' smooth, resonant baritone voice.

I wonder if the moderators will let me post a video? Please?

dsqrddgd909 Wed Nov 07, 2012 01:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 861286)
I can almost hear the Don Cornelius' smooth, resonant baritone voice.

I wonder if the moderators will let me post a video? Please?

Billy, I think it's too soon. Maybe AFTER the season? :D


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