First Summer League Game.... (Sigh)

[ace]

And I had a caoch I almost tossed last year. :-/ HE looks at me funny...

3rd Qtr (this is opening night by the way)

He takes several steps on the court- Free throw lane table side line extended almsot - i say cmon coach get back to the sideline. Next dead ball (right after I tell him to get back):

Coach: AW damnt john your not gunna do this too me again this season.
Me: whats that coach? Enforce the rules?
(calls a technical foul)
Coach:I'm calling the commishoner tonight when I get home.
Me:Thats nice, now will you please get back to the sideline and sit down.
Partner: We're going to enforce the seat belt coach. Your stuck to the chair or going home.
Coach: Man you guys I tell ya.
Partner: Scott, do you really feel like going outside to watch the baseball tourny?
Coach: No,not really.
Partner: Then shut up and let him call the game. Hey Red, whos your shooter?

After the game he said he's not going to let us push him around while he's trying to coach his players. My partner said He can do that for the sideline. The courts for playing not coaching and/or coaches.

Never a dull moment in bubble land outside of Houston?

[Edited by ace on Jul 7th, 2003 at 11:14 PM]

[Tim Roden]

Ya'll just now starting summer league in Houston. Were done up north here in East Texas.

[ace]

Yeah pretty much, the other leauge i call in (well first ame with them is tommorow) started two -three weeks ago.

Mechanics Update:
John F. - I got complimented on my count tonight from my partner. He said he saw a great improvement with my prescence espically on foul calls.

Lee - No more shaking my head... I also managed to get my foul reports down to three words (with a few exceptions) Color Number Violation.

Mel - I did not call an intentioal foul on the bear hug tongiht. but boy the coach sure wanted it :-D

[Edited by ace on Jul 8th, 2003 at 12:09 AM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ace
Mel - I did not call an intentioal foul on the bear hug tongiht. but boy the coach sure wanted it :-D

And this would be .... why?

[ace]

Because- by bear hugging is the kid intentionally trying to HURT the player or just stop the clock? Mel Whitworth current high school former NBA, college referee stressed this at a camp. How is it intentional if he's not trying to stop the clock and him just holding the player? Make sense?

[KingTripleJump]

We are done here too. There are still a few Saturday games scattered hear and there. But for the most part, nothing special in and around the Austin area.

BTW--interesting take on the bear hug thing.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by ace
Because- by bear hugging is the kid intentionally trying to HURT the player or just stop the clock? Mel Whitworth current high school former NBA, college referee stressed this at a camp. How is it intentional if he's not trying to stop the clock and him just holding the player? Make sense?

I don't get it. Seems like a textbook intentional foul to me.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ace
Because- by bear hugging is the kid intentionally trying to HURT the player or just stop the clock? Mel Whitworth current high school former NBA, college referee stressed this at a camp. How is it intentional if he's not trying to stop the clock and him just holding the player? Make sense?

No, this quote doesn't make sense. Are you saying that a defender has to try to hurt the opponent in order for it to be intentional? Or trying to stop the clock is an intentional, but not holding the player? Or what?

The NFHS book defines an intentional foul as a tactic to try to stop the clock, or to use the foul simply to take away an obvious advantage (such as on a fast break where the defender is clearly beaten), OR EXCESSIVE CONTACT. I'd call a bear hug excessive contact, wouldn't you?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ace
Because- by bear hugging is the kid intentionally trying to HURT the player or just stop the clock? Mel Whitworth current high school former NBA, college referee stressed this at a camp. How is it intentional if he's not trying to stop the clock and him just holding the player? Make sense?

No, it doesn't. Somebody's be feeding you some BS.

Why is he fouling? Is he:

1- trying to stop or keep the clock from starting?
2- trying to neutralize an opponent' s obvious advantageous position?
3- making contact away from the ball or when not playing the ball?
4- trying to keep the player from falling because he's made excessive contact?

If he's fouling for any of those reasons, it's an intentional foul. I'm trying to imagine a situation where a player could wrap his arms around an opponent and not be intentionally fouling him. I can't.

I believe Mr. Whitworth needs to take a look at Rule 4-19 and the NFHS POE from 2000, which I've posted below for your benefit.

NFHS 2000-01 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
Intentional Fouls - Excessive Contact
Intentional fouls have remained a point of emphasis for the 2000 -01 season. The goal of reducing the number of intentional fouls has not occurred, primarily because the fouls are not being penalized as "intentional." An intentional foul has occurred when a team is obviously committing a foul, late in the game, to stop the clock and force the opponent into a throw-in or free-throw situation.

Acts that MUST be deemed intentional include:
• grabbing a player from behind;
• wrapping the arms around a player;
• grabbing a player away from the ball;
• grabbing or shoving a player from behind when an easy basket may be scored;
• grabbing/holding a player by the jersey in order to impede their progress;
• when coach/player says "watch, we're going to foul;" and
• excessive contact on a player attempting a shot.

These examples should be considered intentional any time they occur during a game, not just in the last minutes. However, these fouls occur most often during the last minutes of a game and are not properly called or penalized. Coaches must instruct their players regarding the proper techniques involved in strategic fouling; and officials must have the courage to appropriately enforce this rule, anytime during the contest, but especially when time is running out.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ace
Because- by bear hugging is the kid intentionally trying to HURT the player or just stop the clock? Mel Whitworth current high school former NBA, college referee stressed this at a camp. How is it intentional if he's not trying to stop the clock and him just holding the player? Make sense?

I believe a NCAA POE this year is intentional fouls.

In any event, a "bearhug" is always intentional - a no brainer, especially at end of game or when the hug-ee is going for a layup. If you want to get yelled at by coaches continue to not make this obvious call.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I believe a NCAA POE this year is intentional fouls.

In any event, a "bearhug" is always intentional - a no brainer, especially at end of game or when the hug-ee is going for a layup. If you want to get yelled at by coaches continue to not make this obvious call.

It is an NCAA POE this year.The POE basically just says you should call intentional fouls.A better interpretation from the NCAA rulebook is in "Appendix III-Guidelines for Officials". That says in Section 6-Intentional Personal Fouls-"Guidelines for calling the intentional personal foul are...wrapping the arm(s) around around a player and grabbing a player around the torso or legs are intentional personal fouls".

I think that Ace got an NBA interpretation that sureashell ain't applicable to high school or college ball.I don't think that Mel is too up-to-date on rules other than the NBA ones.He shouldn't be teaching that particular philosophy to non-NBA officials either.

[Jim Armstrong]

I agree, the NBA, and even the college game, are totally different than the H.S. game. Kids at the H.S. level are trying to do things, and get away with things they see on T.V. If we as officials let them, then the games are going to continue to get rougher and rougher. Also, I don't think you should ever tell a coach to "shut up" it's unprofessional, and there are better ways to say the same thing.

[Tim Roden]

You probably need to hear again what was being emphisised cause the bear hug is an intentional foul. I know I have missed from time to time what was said as to what was ment.

[ace]

I didnt tell him to shut up, MY partner did. My partner was also calling 3 seconds in the first 5 seconds of the game :sigh: ....

Well He wasnt bear hugging the person with the ball. I did blow the whistle and ring him up as a charge. I dont know. I've heard too many different opinons on the whole bear hugging thing to know wheater to call it intional or holding or what. I dunno. This should be an intersting thread.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ace
My partner was also calling 3 seconds in the first 5 seconds of the game :sigh: ....

Nothing wrong with that, Ace. You can handle 3 seconds either of two ways. You can talk them out of the lane early or you can call it early and let them know it's not going to be allowed. What your partner did is perfectly acceptable.

Who's teaching you these philosophies?

Well He wasnt bear hugging the person with the ball. I did blow the whistle and ring him up as a charge. I dont know.

Okay, I'm . How can you call a charge on a player who wraps their arms around an opponent?

I've heard too many different opinons on the whole bear hugging thing to know wheater to call it intional or holding or what. I dunno. This should be an intersting thread.

I beleive everything you've heard here is consistent with calling an intentional foul.