Sub question
 

After a timeout 2 shots are to be awarded to red team. After the first shot can the red team send in a sub for a non shooter?

Yes

Picky, Picky, Picky ...
 

Did the incoming substitute "sit a tick"?

That wasn't the question.

Did somebody tell you they couldn't?

When did the incoming sub leave the game? I totally missed reading that...

Nit Picking ...
 

After a timeout, and one free throw, if the incoming substitute didn't sit a tick, then "Yes" is the wrong answer.

The question seems clearly to be about whether a player who reports following the first horn of a timeout can sub in before time has run off the clock. Yes, he can, if there are FTs being shot. Reading too much into the question, however, can lead to all sorts of crappy things on the court.

exaclty.

What if the sub had already been DQ'd?
What if the sub wasn't a team member?
What if time had expired?
What if the FTs were for a T?
What if the sub was wearing an illegal uniform or illegal apparel?

What if by "send in" the OP just meant "send onto the court" and not "report to the X by the scorer"?

But, it's better than a picture of a sub sandwich or whatever else might have been posted.

I Know That Those Black Helicopters Are Still Up There ...
 

Trying to hold back. With all my being. The force is so strong. I must resist.

This Would Never, Never Happen With The Eagle At The Table ...
 

True. But those rare times when a player reports without "sitting a tick" are usually after something like a time out, followed by a free throw, when another free throw will follow.

I had a supervisor who would ask a question and then someone would add all kinds of variables before answering. It would tick him off royally.

The answer to the original question "After the first shot can the red team send in a sub for a non shooter" is ALWAYS yes. It is just that some specific team members may not be eligible substitutes.

And, Bob, time expiring with FT's remaining doesn't preclude the opportunity to substitute. It may not make any sense, but I know of no rules that prohibit it.

Icing the shooter?

Advantage not intended by the rules?

Just a couple of thoughts.

If the sub has reported in time to come in, just how long is that going to take? Not sure that 5 seconds can ice the shooter. Even so, I don't think I recall a rule against icing the shooter. If there were, they wouldn't let a team take even one timeout after time expired.

I don't see it as an advantage so what advantage are they getting that is not intended? The rules declare that it is a legal time to substitute so I'm would let them substitute.

Maybe the coach decided he wants to get his hothead to the bench so he doesn't do something stupid and cost his team the game.

Maybe the coach wants to put someone in the game so they can show up in the books as having played.

I'm not going to look for a reason to not do it when the rules are pretty clear unless there is a extremely clear reason to not do it.

I agree, just thinking. A coach would normally have up to ten on the bench. If he strings them out just right, he can get about a minute out of it.

Some coach somewhere has to think of this sometime.

If he strings them out, they're not all getting in. The 2nd one wasn't at the table in time to be beckoned in with the first one so they have to wait until the next opportunity to sub...at least not the way we're told to do it here.

Wasn't there a ruling or interpretation that actually we only were supposed to allow subs that were all at the table at the same basic time? I hate old rulings that do not show up in current casebook plays, but I almost sure I remember where the 10 different substitutes was not what we were supposed to allow in the first place.

Peace

Hearty laugh at that one. Thanks for the good start to my day.

We (I) haven't been told that. I've obviously never had a string of ten, but I have seen three or four strung out.

I'd like to see that. It makes sense.

The X Files ...
 

We've been told to deny entry to substitutes who are not at the "X" when the administering official is "about ready" (my words, I'm at work, no books) to make the ball live (disposal of inbounder, or free thrower).

That's how I do it, but if A6 subs in, I'm not going to be ready until A1 is close to his bench. After A6 comes in, as A1 is walking towards his bench, A7 reports. A2 then slowly walks to his bench. Then A8 reports.

Rinse and repeat.

don't we usually send them to their bench area when time expires while we are shooting free throws? So why should we allow a sub?

What about time expiring at the end of the game where FT's are going to be shot? We going to allow a time out to ice shooter? How many TO's can they call? to "ice the shooter" :D

I'll See Your Question, And Raise You Another Question ...
 

Good question. But answer me this, why wouldn't we allow a substitute? Citation please.

Subsitutions Are Not The Same As Time Outs ...
 

One. No successive time outs allowed in this situation.

While they may go to the bench area and we may allow them to do so, the rules actually require that those other players remain on the court and that the other team members remain on the bench until the FTs are done. The game isn't over and all the rules still apply....even substitute rules.

Courtesy to the shooter! :D No citation that I have found, but if I'm going to send the players to the bench area because time has expired, while we shoot the FT's, could we call them all bench personnel now and not have to bring in subs?

Intermission Substitutes ...
 

Officials beckon substitutes all the time during intermissions. Sometimes substitutes report, and are beckoned, at the beginning of the intermission, more commonly they report, and are beckoned, right before the warning buzzer sounds. Except for when they report after the warning buzzer, when they report, we beckon them into the game. Are we wrong to do that?

IMO, yes, you are wrong. Just let them report and go back to the huddle. It's up to the scorer to tell you who is (or should be) in the game once the next quarter starts.

Tree Falls In A Forest, Nobody Is There To Hear It ???
 

So we beckon these substitutes during a timeout, but not during an intermission?

Mechanically, this does make some sense. In a Connecticut two person game, during a timeout there is an official on the division line, either on the table side jump ball circle, or on the far side jump ball circle, who is obviously there to beckon substitutes. During intermissions, the official on the division line is all the way over on the far side sideline.

If they report, and are not beckoned, as in an intermission, where all players are bench personnel, has there been substitution, or has there been no substitution?

I don't beckon players in during timeout and I cannot think of a single time I have seen anyone do such a thing. That sounds like a local thing, but not something I have ever seen done even watching a game.

Peace

Why are you sending them to their bench area?

The only thing you should be doing is not allowing them to line up in lane spaces....ensuring they are above the FT line extended and outside the 3-point arc like any FT where there will be no rebound. If they want to retreat to the part of the court near their bench while their other team members remain seated on the bench, fine. But, we shouldn't send them there.

I thought he was there to so he could easily give the "first horn" warning to each bench.

First Horn ...
 

I can't speak to NFHS mechanics, but IAABO mechanics have had us at these spots before the oral, and visual, "first horn" warning, by the officials, was implemented. Besides beckoning in substitutes, we're also at these spots to be available to answer any questions from the table.

Just do it to keep the players mainly away from each other while we are shooting free throws, so no extra curricular stuff can go on or trash talking, etc... That is where they are going after the free throws anyways because of time expiring, so that is where I send them for pre-cautionary measures.

First Horn, The Sequel ...
 

According to IAABO mechanics (not necessarily NFHS mechanics), the official on the division line only gives the oral, and visual, "first horn" warning to one bench, not each bench, the bench farthest away from his partner, who is standing somewhere on a sideline, endline, or the free throw line.

And if they don't, you will do exactly what?

There coaches are always in a hurry to try and talk to them anyways, don't really have to worry about it, but if one or two hangs around and watches the FT, I just usually keep an eye on them too and make sure nothing stupid happens like we all do. But most of the time there coach is already in their ears so I don't have to worry about it.

Don't bother asking them to do something you have no rule basis to ask. Just watch them.

This is no differnet than any other FT, you do not have to make a big deal out of this. And you certainly do not need to tell them to do something that is not rules based.

Peacd

I'd treat this like what happens during technical fouls. If all the players want to go to halfcourt, I'm not going to stop them, but I won't tell them to go there either. Same with at the end of the game with no time left...if players want to go to their bench, or their coach's want their players there, I won't fight it as long as players are above the FT line extended and outside the 3 point line. Besides, that I won't direct them to do anything.

+1

Peace

What about in the case of technical foul shots at the end of the game. Can't any legal player (bench or on the court) take those shots?

Yes, any legal player or bench player can shoot FTs at any other time. For example if there are 6 TF shots, 6 different players can take them.

Peace