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-   -   NFHS emphasis on elbow contact (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/92475-nfhs-emphasis-elbow-contact.html)

Mendy Trent Fri Oct 05, 2012 01:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 857066)
"Cause" is a positive action as it is commonly used in the realm of basketball. As such, the elbow in your example didn't cause the contact...it was just there. The other player caused contact by moving into it. It just happens that the reason it is a foul is that the elbow was not in a legal position when contact occurred.

Shooter cause contact all the time when they catch a defender out of position....maybe the arms are not vertical and the shooter ensures they cause contact in hopes of getting a foul (sometimes deserved, sometimes not).
I think we are in agreement other than semantics. :)

Camron Rust Fri Oct 05, 2012 04:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendy Trent (Post 857118)
I think we are in agreement other than semantics. :)
Who is this semantics guy who disagrees with us? Maybe he needs some clarification. ;)

Adam Fri Oct 05, 2012 05:19pm
I think the next question is whether the semantics matter. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Here, I would lean towards saying they do.

AKOFL Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 857067)
I have no foul. The ball handler doesn't have to clear a way for the defense to get to the ball. The elbows have to be somewhere and if the hand on that arm is holding the ball, I'm not going to consider it illegal when someone runs into it regardless of the position. If that arm is, instead, being used to shield the ball but not holding the ball or is extended in a very unnatural fashion, I would consider otherwise.
our assigner rules that there is no situation for elbow contact above the shoulder to be ruled a common foul. is this your take on that rule?

bob jenkins Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 857232)
our assigner rules that there is no situation for elbow contact above the shoulder to be ruled a common foul. is this your take on that rule?
That's clearly contrary to the statement in the POE.

Scrapper1 Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 857058)
It makes sense if the stationary player doesn't have legal position.
I just saw this thread now, and this was my exact thought.

Setting a screen with elbows high and wide is not a legal position, so any contact on those elbows is illegal. This is similar to a defensive player who takes a stationary position with one foot on an out-of-bounds boundary line. The position is not legal, so any contact that occurs is illegal contact caused by the defender.

Camron Rust Sun Oct 07, 2012 02:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 857274)
I just saw this thread now, and this was my exact thought.

Setting a screen with elbows high and wide is not a legal position, so any contact on those elbows is illegal. This is similar to a defensive player who takes a stationary position with one foot on an out-of-bounds boundary line. The position is not legal, so any contact that occurs is illegal contact caused by the defender.
That is not correct. The OOB player can't have LGP, that is all. The rule doesn't come anywhere near declaring that they are liable for all contact by being OOB, just that they can't be guarding. It doesn't become open season for an opponent to run into them if they see they happen to be touching OOB but are not actively guarding.

The case play that some like to cite to support your claim involves a player actively guarding the opponent...meaning the player was moving to maintain LGP but loses it by stepping OOB. It doesn't support your claim at all.

Rob1968 Sun Oct 07, 2012 07:23pm
Ball handler and elbows
 
9-13-2. . . A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under the chin or against the body.

So, A1 holds the ball as described, above, and B2, guarding A2 runs into A1's elbow.

What do we have?

(I've seen this, numerous times, and even with severe contact to the head of B2.) What judgement factors do you use regarding such contact?

billyu2 Sun Oct 07, 2012 08:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 857351)
9-13-2. . . A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under the chin or against the body.

So, A1 holds the ball as described, above, and B2, guarding A2 runs into A1's elbow.

What do we have?

(I've seen this, numerous times, and even with severe contact to the head of B2.) What judgement factors do you use regarding such contact?
According to 4-40-7, a player with the ball can be considered to be a screener. I would say in this situation A1 could be charged with an illegal screen.

Camron Rust Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 857351)
9-13-2. . . A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under the chin or against the body.

So, A1 holds the ball as described, above, and B2, guarding A2 runs into A1's elbow.

What do we have?

(I've seen this, numerous times, and even with severe contact to the head of B2.) What judgement factors do you use regarding such contact?
Depends. It could be a foul on either. It could either be a screen that is called against A1 or it could be a foul on B2 for contacting the ball handler's arm. Unless it was a clear attempt to use the elbow to set a screen, I'm most likely going with the defensive foul. If you don't you'll have defenders running into the ball handler's arms all night trying to get the illegal screen call.

bob jenkins Mon Oct 08, 2012 08:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 857382)
Depends. It could be a foul on either. It could either be a screen that is called against A1 or it could be a foul on B2 for contacting the ball handler's arm. Unless it was a clear attempt to use the elbow to set a screen, I'm most likely going with the defensive foul. If you don't you'll have defenders running into the ball handler's arms all night trying to get the illegal screen call.
Agreed. It could also be incidental contact.

Most of the time, a player only chins the ball when a defensive player is tring to swat at it. So, the chances of having a different defensive player run into the elbow are pretty slim, I would think.

IREFU2 Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 857232)
our assigner rules that there is no situation for elbow contact above the shoulder to be ruled a common foul. is this your take on that rule?
He need to rethink his statement......

Adam Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IREFU2 (Post 858594)
He need to rethink his statement......
Yep, taking a college mentality and applying it to high school when the rules don't support it.

Maybe even taking a misunderstanding of the college rule.

IREFU2 Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 858595)
Yep, taking a college mentality and applying it to high school when the rules don't support it.

Maybe even taking a misunderstanding of the college rule.
The one and only problem I see with this whole thing is that someone has to see the elbow contact. Since there are no monitors (at least in our area in HS), a coach cant request or even suggest that his kid got an elbow...no way to review even if the kid is on the grown holding his face.

Camron Rust Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 858595)
Yep, taking a college mentality and applying it to high school when the rules don't support it.

Maybe even taking a misunderstanding of the college rule.
Yes, even a misunderstanding of the college rule.


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