NWAhoops.com Presents "YOU MAKE THE CALL"

[NWAhoops]

I'm pretty sure I know what you're going to say but I've been surprised before.

We were in Branson this past weekend when I found myself standing right behind the official who was at half court. We were both facing the court. In a normal speaking voice, I asked if he could watch for moving screens and the man went off on me! He said "YOU COULD CALL A MOVING SCREEN ON EVERY PLAY! YOU COULD CALL A MOVING SCREEN ON EVERY PLAY IN THE NBA!" I said, ok it was just a question.

Four minutes later we were defending a fast break when one of my girls began directing the ball to the sideline where I was standing. With little to no contact, the ball handler slightly stepped on the out of bounds line, no call, she then dribbled on the line, no call. She again stepped on the line and the wistle blew. BLOCKING FOUL! As the official was informing the score table I calmly and quietly bent over and pointed (touched) the sideline with my index finger. I never said a word and he lit me up!

My question, what would you have done?

Coach Corbitt
http://www.candlemart.com/flames

PS. My 5th Grade girls were playing up in a 6th grade tourney...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by NWAhoops

Four minutes later we were defending a fast break when one of my girls began directing the ball to the sideline where I was standing. With little to no contact, the ball handler slightly stepped on the out of bounds line, no call, she then dribbled on the line, no call. She again stepped on the line and the wistle blew. BLOCKING FOUL! As the official was informing the score table I calmly and quietly bent over and pointed (touched) the sideline with my index finger. I never said a word and he lit me up!

My question, what would you have done?

Coach Corbitt
http://www.candlemart.com/flames

PS. My 5th Grade girls were playing up in a 6th grade tourney...

Oh my,here we go again.....

Coach, please read your own words above."With little to no contact" usually means that the defender did have a little contact,and that "little" contact actually caused the player to either go out of bounds or dribble on the line. With kids that young,I'm guessing that the official really didn't want to call the foul,but your defender left him no choice.If he doesn't,he has just penalized the other team for no reason at all,by giving your team the ball.And to top it off,you now make a gesture to show that official up-a gesture which everybody in the gym can plainly see.Coach,your gesture is the equivalent of hollering "you blew the call,dummy".Now,what would I have done? With all due respect,Coach,and trying to be as couth as possible,I would have lit your a$$ up so quick that it would still be red!

Coach,these are 5th Grade girls that you are talking about.Leave the damn officials alone.If you have a complaint with them,go through the proper channels with it.

Fifth Grade girls,Coach!

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by NWAhoops
My question, what would you have done?

I would've blown the whistle as soon as she stepped on the OOB line. When you pointed to the line, I would've said "She stepped out b/c of the push, Coach". Then if you pionted again, I woulda rung you up. But not the first time. But that's just me.

Chuck

[devdog69]

I'm going to try not to rant here, and I hope that NWA coach will return to read this and take some of what I am saying to heart.
1. I'm guessing this was an MAYB event since you mentioned Branson and there was one there this past weekend. This is a valuable organization but they do not treat their officials with respect, don't take care of business with regards to scheduling officials and therefore they get what they can. At the sixth grade girls level, it is likely that your official was pretty inexperienced. In fact, I'm guessing he's never seen a varsity floor and probably only works summer ball.
2. These officials work 15-25 games per weekend and depending on the time you see them, they can be pretty cranky, so they may have a short temper, just an observation.
3. You were out of line to try to embarrass or 'show up' the official by pointing at the line. I would much rather have you ask 'didn't she step out', than bend over and point. In a summer weekned tournament, I'll whack you every time. However, I gave only two technicals in 23 games this past weekend, both the first time a team had seen me and they didn't know that the bs wouldn't be tolerated. After that we got along well.
JMHO, as always but I don't see this organization continuing it's growth and prosperity without a little attention to detail and the officiating does need to be addressed, but they seem to only be interested in collecting money rather than putting out a good product. NWA coach, feel free to email me and we can discuss some specifics if you feel inclined.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by NWAhoops
My question, what would you have done?

I would have popped you for being out of the coaching box when you were standing at halfcourt!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Oh my,here we go again.....

Coach, please read your own words above."With little to no contact" usually means that the defender did have a little contact,and that "little" contact actually caused the player to either go out of bounds or dribble on the line. With kids that young,I'm guessing that the official really didn't want to call the foul,but your defender left him no choice.If he doesn't,he has just penalized the other team for no reason at all,by giving your team the ball.And to top it off,you now make a gesture to show that official up-a gesture which everybody in the gym can plainly see.Coach,your gesture is the equivalent of hollering "you blew the call,dummy".Now,what would I have done? With all due respect,Coach,and trying to be as couth as possible,I would have lit your a$$ up so quick that it would still be red!

Coach,these are 5th Grade girls that you are talking about.Leave the damn officials alone.If you have a complaint with them,go through the proper channels with it.

Fifth Grade girls,Coach!

Hold on here a second JR, these might have been 5th grade girls but they were playing up in the 6th grade bracket!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Hold on here a second JR, these might have been 5th grade girls but they were playing up in the 6th grade bracket! [/B]

Oh!

That explains everything. All's well,now.

Nevermind...

[NWAhoops]

Thanks guys, I appreciate your opinions and I'll try to reply to each comment.

1. Jurassic Referee - I'm not attempting to determine the genesis of the foul. In my recap of the play there is no mention of when the contact was made so there's no way to determine fault. I also didn't say that I had a complaint with the ref, you assumed that. My question was about the T. I did however get your answer to my question. No warning, just a whack.

2. ChuckElias - This is more like the way I would have handled it IF I had been the ref.

3. devdog69 - Yes, It was MAYB in Branson. Sounds like you understand well, but I would like to point out that I did ask a simple question (the only one of the game) 4 mins prior and got my head bitten off. I'll admit the gesture was due to frustration, I just needed to know how the majority of refs would have handled it.

4. BktBallRef - Cute, it happend at my coaching box. IN my coaching box if she in fact stepped out of bounds. :-)


The reason I ask questions after the game is because I've found that questions during the game are not taken well even in a "business like" tone of voice. Another reason is that I try to teach my 5th graders the fundamentals of basketball. If what I'm teaching is detramental, I must be willing to change what I'm coaching to match what is going to be called.

DevDog, eventhough you would have wacked me I appreciate your honest opinion without insulting me. I know refs require respect and I'm willing to give it. I hope that goes both ways. In your case, I believe it does.

Just so everyone will know, here's an email I got from the opposing coach just this moring.

Brad,
Thanks. Unfortunately for your team, we had one of those games where everything worked. If we had played you on Saturday, the outcome might have been reversed. You definitely have the best 5th grade team we've seen. I tend to agree with you about the officiating. Inconsistent is the word that comes to my mind. I couldn't believe how quick he called that technical on you when I had been complaining louder than you for the entire game. I saw the coach of the Lady Fire run three quarters of the way across the court to contest a call without receiving a technical later that same day. By the end of the tournament, my post players were standing perfectly still, arms straight up, not blinking, and still getting fouls called every time the big girl from the Sparks powered into them. Then, near the end of the game, the smallest player on my team (#1) drove in for a fast-break layup and got called for a charge.


Again, I appreciate your opinions and will use this information to hopefully improve my coaching.

[cmathews]

NWA, BktBallRef was talking about the moving screen conversation at half court

[NWAhoops]

Sorry, I wasn't very articulate in that situation. That conversation also took place in my coaching box. I don't know why I put half court. He was on the court just a foot in front of me.

[Joe]

"I asked if he could watch for moving screens and the man went off on me! He said "YOU COULD CALL A MOVING SCREEN ON EVERY PLAY! YOU COULD CALL A MOVING SCREEN ON EVERY PLAY IN THE NBA!" I said, ok it was just a question.

.... I calmly and quietly bent over and pointed (touched) the sideline with my index finger. I never said a word and he lit me up!"

If the guy fired on you in the first place, I wouldn't
question him in the second. Sometimes good people
have bad days. Let it go.... in particular with 11-12 year old kids. Moreover, I find it's better to chat a bit and get a feel for officials before doing any *****in'. *If* I do question it's during a dead ball. Thirty+ years of playing and some coaching (a little officiating); I've never been T'd, even though I do have a temper.

"I calmly and quietly bent over and pointed (touched) the sideline with my index finger."

If you must, it's better to *ask* "calmly and quietly": "was the foul before the OOB?" The gesture,
however subtle, tends to show-up the official.

Originally posted by NWAhoops
I'm pretty sure I know what you're going to say but I've been surprised before.

We were in Branson this past weekend when I found myself standing right behind the official who was at half court. We were both facing the court. In a normal speaking voice, I asked if he could watch for moving screens and the man went off on me! He said "YOU COULD CALL A MOVING SCREEN ON EVERY PLAY! YOU COULD CALL A MOVING SCREEN ON EVERY PLAY IN THE NBA!" I said, ok it was just a question.

Four minutes later we were defending a fast break when one of my girls began directing the ball to the sideline where I was standing. With little to no contact, the ball handler slightly stepped on the out of bounds line, no call, she then dribbled on the line, no call. She again stepped on the line and the wistle blew. BLOCKING FOUL! As the official was informing the score table I calmly and quietly bent over and pointed (touched) the sideline with my index finger. I never said a word and he lit me up!

My question, what would you have done?

Coach Corbitt
http://www.candlemart.com/flames

PS. My 5th Grade girls were playing up in a 6th grade tourney...

[Hawks Coach]

Don't show up the official.

Rule #2: Refer to rule #1 before yelling, gesturing, etc.

In my experience, you can say something if you like about a specific call, but it will rarely change anything. Exception is a clear incorrect interp of a rule if you can get it addressed before ball is made live again. That is, if you both see the same thing and disagree about the appropriate ruling, that is something you can get fixed at times. If they see one thing and you see another, it's what they see that counts so save your energy.

I usually refrain from discussing a single situation and confine my comments to patterns of play and calls/no-calls. The illegal screen comment you made would fall in that category, and the way you made it is the right way - so only you and the ref are part of the discussion, rather than showing him up. Being specific about where it is happening (e.g., #23 is setting illegal screens on every inbounds) is even better IMO. But not all ref are going to be inclined to listen. When they show that they don't want to hear it, it's time to leave them be.

[cmathews]

HawksCoach, and all coaches for that matter: I am one of the guys that doesn't mind listening to you, even discussing things that need to be addressed, in your opinion or mine. With that said, when a coach or player says something to the effect of can you watch #xx they are holding or setting illegal screens, my response is usually something to this effect. "I will keep an eye out, if I see it I will get it, but I can't look just for them/that call." Don't get me wrong I don't mind the "feedback" but by the same token I don't think that you want us to concentrate on the call you think we are missing and be missing others in the process. Just a little insight from this side..

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by NWAhoops

Brad,
Thanks. Unfortunately for your team, we had one of those games where everything worked. If we had played you on Saturday, the outcome might have been reversed. You definitely have the best 5th grade team we've seen. I tend to agree with you about the officiating. Inconsistent is the word that comes to my mind. I couldn't believe how quick he called that technical on you when I had been complaining louder than you for the entire game. I saw the coach of the Lady Fire run three quarters of the way across the court to contest a call without receiving a technical later that same day. By the end of the tournament, my post players were standing perfectly still, arms straight up, not blinking, and still getting fouls called every time the big girl from the Sparks powered into them. Then, near the end of the game, the smallest player on my team (#1) drove in for a fast-break layup and got called for a charge.


Again, I appreciate your opinions and will use this information to hopefully improve my coaching.

Look coach, here's the bottom line. These are 5th grade girls we are discussing here. You might find this hard to believe but at some point a lot of experienced officials just stop taking these games, so you get mostly first year guys or guys with first year experience repeated 10 times. So maybe the refs are inconsistent, so what. Lighten up with 'em and concentrate of coaching your team & displaying an extraordinarily positive attitude, 'cause maybe one day I (or someone like me) will get roped into working one of your games and you will not last 2 minutes.

Really.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by cmathews
HawksCoach, and all coaches for that matter: I am one of the guys that doesn't mind listening to you, even discussing things that need to be addressed, in your opinion or mine. With that said, when a coach or player says something to the effect of can you watch #xx they are holding or setting illegal screens, my response is usually something to this effect. "I will keep an eye out, if I see it I will get it, but I can't look just for them/that call." Don't get me wrong I don't mind the "feedback" but by the same token I don't think that you want us to concentrate on the call you think we are missing and be missing others in the process. Just a little insight from this side..

I don't expect you to look for one thing to the exclusion of everything else going on in the game. And I rarely feel that much needs to be brought to an official's attention. But if there is a consistent problem from my perspective, I will raise it. I believe that is one of my responsibilities to my players with respect to officials. The other responsibility is to seek clarification when I don't know why something was called (and I really mean to get clarification, not to argue).

Other than that, coaches need to take care of what their team is doing, not what the team in stripes is doing.