I'm pretty sure I know what you're going to say but I've been surprised before.

We were in Branson this past weekend when I found myself standing right behind the official who was at half court. We were both facing the court. In a normal speaking voice, I asked if he could watch for moving screens and the man went off on me! He said "YOU COULD CALL A MOVING SCREEN ON EVERY PLAY! YOU COULD CALL A MOVING SCREEN ON EVERY PLAY IN THE NBA!" I said, ok it was just a question.

Four minutes later we were defending a fast break when one of my girls began directing the ball to the sideline where I was standing. With little to no contact, the ball handler slightly stepped on the out of bounds line, no call, she then dribbled on the line, no call. She again stepped on the line and the wistle blew. BLOCKING FOUL! As the official was informing the score table I calmly and quietly bent over and pointed (touched) the sideline with my index finger. I never said a word and he lit me up!

My question, what would you have done?

Coach Corbitt
http://www.candlemart.com/flames

PS. My 5th Grade girls were playing up in a 6th grade tourney...

Oh my,here we go again.....

Coach, please read your own words above."With little to no contact" usually means that the defender did have a little contact,and that "little" contact actually caused the player to either go out of bounds or dribble on the line. With kids that young,I'm guessing that the official really didn't want to call the foul,but your defender left him no choice.If he doesn't,he has just penalized the other team for no reason at all,by giving your team the ball.And to top it off,you now make a gesture to show that official up-a gesture which everybody in the gym can plainly see.Coach,your gesture is the equivalent of hollering "you blew the call,dummy".Now,what would I have done? With all due respect,Coach,and trying to be as couth as possible,I would have lit your a$$ up so quick that it would still be red!

Coach,these are 5th Grade girls that you are talking about.Leave the damn officials alone.If you have a complaint with them,go through the proper channels with it.

Fifth Grade girls,Coach!

I would've blown the whistle as soon as she stepped on the OOB line. When you pointed to the line, I would've said "She stepped out b/c of the push, Coach". Then if you pionted again, I woulda rung you up. But not the first time. But that's just me.

Chuck

I'm going to try not to rant here, and I hope that NWA coach will return to read this and take some of what I am saying to heart.
1. I'm guessing this was an MAYB event since you mentioned Branson and there was one there this past weekend. This is a valuable organization but they do not treat their officials with respect, don't take care of business with regards to scheduling officials and therefore they get what they can. At the sixth grade girls level, it is likely that your official was pretty inexperienced. In fact, I'm guessing he's never seen a varsity floor and probably only works summer ball.
2. These officials work 15-25 games per weekend and depending on the time you see them, they can be pretty cranky, so they may have a short temper, just an observation.
3. You were out of line to try to embarrass or 'show up' the official by pointing at the line. I would much rather have you ask 'didn't she step out', than bend over and point. In a summer weekned tournament, I'll whack you every time. However, I gave only two technicals in 23 games this past weekend, both the first time a team had seen me and they didn't know that the bs wouldn't be tolerated. After that we got along well.
JMHO, as always but I don't see this organization continuing it's growth and prosperity without a little attention to detail and the officiating does need to be addressed, but they seem to only be interested in collecting money rather than putting out a good product. NWA coach, feel free to email me and we can discuss some specifics if you feel inclined.

I would have popped you for being out of the coaching box when you were standing at halfcourt! :D

Hold on here a second JR, these might have been 5th grade girls but they were playing up in the 6th grade bracket!

Oh!

That explains everything. All's well,now.

Nevermind...

Thanks guys, I appreciate your opinions and I'll try to reply to each comment.

1. Jurassic Referee - I'm not attempting to determine the genesis of the foul. In my recap of the play there is no mention of when the contact was made so there's no way to determine fault. I also didn't say that I had a complaint with the ref, you assumed that. My question was about the T. I did however get your answer to my question. No warning, just a whack.

2. ChuckElias - This is more like the way I would have handled it IF I had been the ref.

3. devdog69 - Yes, It was MAYB in Branson. Sounds like you understand well, but I would like to point out that I did ask a simple question (the only one of the game) 4 mins prior and got my head bitten off. I'll admit the gesture was due to frustration, I just needed to know how the majority of refs would have handled it.

4. BktBallRef - Cute, it happend at my coaching box. IN my coaching box if she in fact stepped out of bounds. :-)


The reason I ask questions after the game is because I've found that questions during the game are not taken well even in a "business like" tone of voice. Another reason is that I try to teach my 5th graders the fundamentals of basketball. If what I'm teaching is detramental, I must be willing to change what I'm coaching to match what is going to be called.

DevDog, eventhough you would have wacked me I appreciate your honest opinion without insulting me. I know refs require respect and I'm willing to give it. I hope that goes both ways. In your case, I believe it does.

Just so everyone will know, here's an email I got from the opposing coach just this moring.

<i>Brad,
Thanks. Unfortunately for your team, we had one of those games where everything worked. If we had played you on Saturday, the outcome might have been reversed. You definitely have the best 5th grade team we've seen. I tend to agree with you about the officiating. Inconsistent is the word that comes to my mind. I couldn't believe how quick he called that technical on you when I had been complaining louder than you for the entire game. I saw the coach of the Lady Fire run three quarters of the way across the court to contest a call without receiving a technical later that same day. By the end of the tournament, my post players were standing perfectly still, arms straight up, not blinking, and still getting fouls called every time the big girl from the Sparks powered into them. Then, near the end of the game, the smallest player on my team (#1) drove in for a fast-break layup and got called for a charge. </i>


Again, I appreciate your opinions and will use this information to hopefully improve my coaching.

NWA, BktBallRef was talking about the moving screen conversation at half court :)

Sorry, I wasn't very articulate in that situation. That conversation also took place in my coaching box. I don't know why I put half court. He was on the court just a foot in front of me.

"I asked if he could watch for moving screens and the man went off on me! He said "YOU COULD CALL A MOVING SCREEN ON EVERY PLAY! YOU COULD CALL A MOVING SCREEN ON EVERY PLAY IN THE NBA!" I said, ok it was just a question.

.... I calmly and quietly bent over and pointed (touched) the sideline with my index finger. I never said a word and he lit me up!"

If the guy fired on you in the first place, I wouldn't
question him in the second. Sometimes good people
have bad days. Let it go.... in particular with 11-12 year old kids. Moreover, I find it's better to chat a bit and get a feel for officials before doing any *****in'. *If* I do question it's during a dead ball. Thirty+ years of playing and some coaching (a little officiating); I've never been T'd, even though I do have a temper.

"I calmly and quietly bent over and pointed (touched) the sideline with my index finger."

If you must, it's better to *ask* "calmly and quietly": "was the foul before the OOB?" The gesture,
however subtle, tends to show-up the official.

Rule #1
 

Don't show up the official.

Rule #2: Refer to rule #1 before yelling, gesturing, etc.

In my experience, you can say something if you like about a specific call, but it will rarely change anything. Exception is a clear incorrect interp of a rule if you can get it addressed before ball is made live again. That is, if you both see the same thing and disagree about the appropriate ruling, that is something you can get fixed at times. If they see one thing and you see another, it's what they see that counts so save your energy.

I usually refrain from discussing a single situation and confine my comments to patterns of play and calls/no-calls. The illegal screen comment you made would fall in that category, and the way you made it is the right way - so only you and the ref are part of the discussion, rather than showing him up. Being specific about where it is happening (e.g., #23 is setting illegal screens on every inbounds) is even better IMO. But not all ref are going to be inclined to listen. When they show that they don't want to hear it, it's time to leave them be.

HawksCoach, and all coaches for that matter: I am one of the guys that doesn't mind listening to you, even discussing things that need to be addressed, in your opinion or mine. With that said, when a coach or player says something to the effect of can you watch #xx they are holding or setting illegal screens, my response is usually something to this effect. "I will keep an eye out, if I see it I will get it, but I can't look just for them/that call." Don't get me wrong I don't mind the "feedback" but by the same token I don't think that you want us to concentrate on the call you think we are missing and be missing others in the process. Just a little insight from this side..

Look coach, here's the bottom line. These are 5th grade girls we are discussing here. You might find this hard to believe but at some point a lot of experienced officials just stop taking these games, so you get mostly first year guys or guys with first year experience repeated 10 times. So maybe the refs are inconsistent, so what. Lighten up with 'em and concentrate of coaching your team & displaying an extraordinarily positive attitude, 'cause maybe one day I (or someone like me) will get roped into working one of your games and you will not last 2 minutes.

Really.

I don't expect you to look for one thing to the exclusion of everything else going on in the game. And I rarely feel that much needs to be brought to an official's attention. But if there is a consistent problem from my perspective, I will raise it. I believe that is one of my responsibilities to my players with respect to officials. The other responsibility is to seek clarification when I don't know why something was called (and I really mean to get clarification, not to argue).

Other than that, coaches need to take care of what their team is doing, not what the team in stripes is doing.

Dan, obviously you don't know me and that's too bad. My focus here was NOT to berate the ref (or you) but to find out how most refs would see/call this. Then, based on that info I can anticipate reactions and change my coaching style. I call it learning.

Since you brought up the subject, I'll respond. IMO, just because you're reffing 10/11/12yr old kids shouldn't stop you from being consistent. Coaches can't coach fundamentals if the calls are all over the board. Call it either loose or tight but call it consistently. I believe most of your colleague would agree.

Opinions from cmathews, Hawks Coach, devdog69 and ChuckElias were direct yet constructive and will allow me to better prepare for future games. You on the other hand, assumed I act like Bobby Knight simply because I put "Coach" in front of my last name. This was the only T I've ever received and I was completely surprised by it. After receiving feedback from the your colleagues I can see their perspective and will never touch the sideline again. (Remember, that was the point of my original post)

On the other hand, you have proven to me, with your last statement, that some refs will always be looking for someone to whack.

HawksCoach, you are one of the coaches that officials don't mind listening to, and some of us can even learn from you and your insight. I think that we need to communicate "across the lines" to both get a better perspective from where the other side stands. It helps us all.

Good response Mr Mathews. I didn't post to create a stir. I wanted to learn.

NWA as you look at this forum more and more, you will find that there are very few things that don't cause a stir.. LOL that is what makes it a good place, the passion that everyone feels is something that is needed to compete or to officiate, and we are all here to learn. :)

NWA, don't take it personal. Sometimes "Have a great weekend" can set off this group.

As for the first comment resulting in a barrage from the official, you may have been the 20th person that day that asked him to watch for a particular act. Thus, you took the brunt of everyone's transgressions. It is similar to a coach of a team that has to play a back-to-back and one of the officials in game one acted like a jerk. The first call he doesn't like in game two may result in a Bobby Knight tantrum. The official will wonder what happened just like you are wondering - course you will be gone while he's wondering :D

As for touching the line, I have not worked with anyone who would not whack you for that. Personally, you can complain (or whine) a little, but show me up and I'm probably going to get the last word...especially in summer ball.

Just my thoughts.

Coach, you're so focused on being defensive, that you missed the point of Dan's post. He said, "These are 5th grade girls we are discussing here. You might find this hard to believe but at some point a lot of experienced officials just stop taking these games, so you get mostly first year guys or guys with first year experience repeated 10 times. So maybe the refs are inconsistent, so what. Lighten up with 'em and concentrate of coaching your team & displaying an extraordinarily positive attitude...

And he's correct. Let's examine what he said. Very few veteran officials are working these types of tourneys. Most of these guys are young inexperienced officials or maybe even rec league officials. Further, you aren't going to change their mind or the call by barking about something you think they missed. And if you're too antagonistic, all you'll do is alienate them. I've seen it over and over again. A coach is so focused on the officials that he forgets to coach. He loses focus, the players lose focus and pretty soon, the game is in the toilet. Ignore the officials, and focus on your team.

That's what Dan was saying.

I have to agree with what Dan is saying. We deal with this all the time in my area. Younger age groups and girls usually means newbies or refs that can't get the higher level games. Not to say that we don't get some good ones, especially in seasons where there aren't as many games competing for the refs.

With lower level refs, you usually gain nothing by pushing these guys buttons. Not saying you were way out there, but they will not have the capacity to distinguish the same way that more experienced/more skilled refs will.

BktBallRef - I totally understand that and already knew that younger teams get less experienced refs. That's one reason why I envoked the team rule to never complain about the offiating. I don't let the girls come to me with complaints. I broke MY rule ONCE in two years and I got whacked. It surprised me.

What I took exception to was Dan's comment: "So maybe the refs are inconsistent, so what." Then he said "'cause maybe one day I (or someone like me) will get roped into working one of your games and you will not last 2 minutes."

I took exception to Dan's ASSUMPTION that he knows my personallity and my coaching style when in fact, he doesn't. He assumed that I act like Bobby Knight because I got one T. He certainly wasn't there. I generally don't complain about calls. I'm certainly not antagonistic. I got a T and wanted to know why. I surely wasn't going to ask the ref that whacked me during or after the game. So, I came here.

Now I'm surprised at the number of refs here that assume that any coach that gets whacked must have been antagonistic. I only had 1 request for the ref during the entire game; I only questioned that 1 call during the game with either ref; the other coach was also surprised by the quick T; I've already said that I've learned from this won't do it again; but now I'm the antagonistic coach that won't lay off of the refs!

We were in Branson this past weekend when I found myself standing right behind the official who was at half court. We were both facing the court. In a normal speaking voice, I asked if he could watch for moving screens and the man went off on me! He said "YOU COULD CALL A MOVING SCREEN ON EVERY PLAY! YOU COULD CALL A MOVING SCREEN ON EVERY PLAY IN THE NBA!" I said, ok it was just a question.

Four minutes later we were defending a fast break when one of my girls began directing the ball to the sideline where I was standing. With little to no contact, the ball handler slightly stepped on the out of bounds line, no call, she then dribbled on the line, no call. She again stepped on the line and the wistle blew. BLOCKING FOUL! As the official was informing the score table I calmly and quietly bent over and pointed (touched) the sideline with my index finger. I never said a word and he lit me up!

NWA I applaud your desire to want to gain more insight into the refereeing aspect of the game. I have been on both sides at different times and have found that my experience in both areas has made me a better referee and and a better coach.

From a purely refereeing perspective on this situation and trying to determine what occurred and why it occurred, my first question regarding the contact deals with, was your defender in a legal guarding position. If she was in a legal guarding position and the offense created the contact then you have a legitimate question. Now of course, lets remember that these are 5th and 6th grade girls. At their skill level, often times the slightest contact causes an impediment to their speed, agility, and quickness. In this scenario, if your defender had not established a legal guarding position, and even though there was "little contact" the offensive players agility was impeded causing her to dribble and/or step out of bounds.

Now with that being said, the majority of officials you are going to get at this level are not going to look at this play in this way. As has already been mentioned, many of them are first or second year guys who have worked several games over the same weekend. Tournaments like this become a survival match for them just to make it through. This does not mean that I condone their actions, however I have empathy for their plight and their skill level. All of us who have been officials for several years can remember those days.

Now the question is how to approach these situations. As an official, what impresses me about a coach is the way in which they ask questions. That lets me know their understanding of the rules of the game the way they are written. Based on the way you stated your first question regarding moving screens become, there is nothing illegal about a screener who is moving until they make contact. Hawkscoach was right about being more descript by giving numbers. A general statement about watching moving screens tells me that there are 10 players out there who might be setting "moving screens". If you say "make sure red #20 is setting a legal screen" it makes me think that you see something specific I need to look at. Now, don't be surprised if it is a 50/50 screen the next time down the floor if I don't call it, because I don't want anyone who might have heard our conversation to think that you talked me into the foul, however I will give a good look at it and possibly even tell you that she's legal.

With the bump, out of bounds play, I've already given you the "legal guarding position" phrase, but you have put the official in a bad position by making an overt gesture to be seen by all. First or second year guys are already trying to establish themselves and are very conscious about appearing as though they are in control. As they gain more experience and skill, they will learn that the perception of control will come through in other ways. As Chuck described how he would have handled the situation he doesn't need to whack you in that situation to display his game management skills. But what you have done is put the official in a position of losing or saving face, or so it may seem to him, so you may want to be aware of what type of official you have. Secondly, on this play, as a coach it becomes more impressive to me as an official if you realize that if your defender had definitely beaten the offense to a spot and gotten her foot out of bounds, there is no way an official could have called it a block then. You are able to communicate to the official through your player your understanding of the rules and what it takes to get that close bang bang call.

I hope this has been helpful, and not just some random ramblings.

While you're relatively new here, I'm sure the rest of us recognized that what Dan posted was done so with his tongue planted fir,m;y in his cheek. You took offense where no offense was intended.

Quote:

Now I'm surprised at the number of refs here that assume that any coach that gets whacked must have been antagonistic. I only had 1 request for the ref during the entire game; I only questioned that 1 call during the game with either ref; the other coach was also surprised by the quick T; I've already said that I've learned from this won't do it again; but now I'm the antagonistic coach that won't lay off of the refs!

We can only base our perception of you on what you post here. based on the original post, yes, you sounded antagonistic.

BTW, what the other coach thought, really doesn't carry much weight. His is just an opinion, and we can't become overly enthralled in whther he was right or not. For example, if a coach comes up to me after a game and says "Good game," I pretty much take that with a grain of salt. Why? Because if I take his comment to heart, then I must also be willing to listen when he walks up after a game and says, "You really sucked tonight." So you see, what any coach has to say about a call or a game, really has no bearing on an official, anymore than if I walked up to you after a game and said, "You really blew that game, coach." ;)

The bottom line.
 

NWAhoops,

None of us were there. I can assume that none of us know who the official was that behaved the way he did. We can only speculate on what happen based on just your side of the story. If it happen the way you claim (no reason to say it didn't happen that way) many folks here have given you all kind of senerios to help you understand. This after all is just a discussion board of ideas and opinion, nothing more, nothing less. I personally have no opinion about this subject, other than there is two sides to every story and I am sure the official in question has a side to what you might have done. But that is the way it always is, not just in this case.

I think Dan and TH have done a good job trying to give you a perspective, but it is up to you to see their point of view and take what you can and leave the rest you do not agree with. Many times we come here looking for easy answers, and we will never get them. There is no magic bullet in officiating and there are many ways to skin a cat. So if you are really trying to learn what happen, understand what part you played in the situation because it might happen again if you are not careful.

Peace

I think that the coach was a little over the top and should have been whacked for coaching the refs instead of his team. BUT I also feel that part of the problem at AAU tournaments is ref overload. Things can get a little, shall we say sloppy after the third, fourth or the fifth game. AND when they take four tennis courts in a college field house and turn them into basketball courts, you now have two (sometimes three) potential OOB lines on each side of the court, in some cases dotted lines at that and, oh by the way, a chalked in 3 point line that gets pretty obscure as the day goes on. AND what about the non-existant half court line on the tennis court, "Coach tell your players that the half court line is the imaginary line that runs cross court between the two metal plates that cover the volleyball pole holes". I once refed an AAU game where as the trail I followed a ball handler who dribbled the ball at least three times OOB; it didn't dawn on me until we were coming back the other way what she had done.

Problems with line calls at an AAU tournament? I am not surprised, hey she stayed on this side of the curtain. ;o}

I see this thread as less objectional than some, but doesn't it still boil down to a case of someone complaining about the officiating after the fact and wanting others to agree, even though they have no way of knowing whether the criticism is valid or not? What would I have done? I would have tried to call the game to the best of my ability and get each call right. (this is not possible, getting each call right, I mean) Chances are, this guy was doing the same thing. If he missed a call, get used to it, it happens a lot. Was he quick with the T? Perhaps. I myself am not greatly offended by the tapping of the line, but that is just me. Your earlier conversation about the moving screens had obviously annoyed the man, so this should have been a warning signal. I think the bottom line is at the 5th grade girls level you are not going to buy a lot of calls so you should really focus on your team and adjust to the calling just like you adjust to other parts of the game.