H.S. Rule talking about referee jurisdiction to award technicals after clock runs
 

I’m Assisting my oldest son coaching my youngest son’s playoff game last night. Never got tossed in my life, coached 50 different rec teams. Got maybe 4 techs over 500 plus games before this for pointing out 'no calls'.

In first couple minutes, it’s like a football game out there (6th graders in rec), so we both complain ‘pretty strongly’ and get ‘T’d up.

Tonight is the final playoff game, and we have no coach and here’s why.

After the game was over, referees were sitting at scorers table waiting for game next game to ref. Teams had shaken hands and gone off to their respective corners

I walked up to one after the game, simply told him that it was the worst refereed game I’d been a part of for 15 years (8 injury timeouts had to be called because players were falling down getting injured and several crying! because of “no calls”). Game over, we won OT 37-35.They were sitting at the scorers table waiting for the next game to start.

Full five minutes after game is over, Ref T’s me again, results in next game suspension (and two free throws five minutes after game over for other team, which thankfully they miss).—and my son is not available to coach tonites championship playoff game, flying to Atlanta.

Anyway, if anyway has a copy of these rules, I’d appreciate you forwarding to me asap only at [email protected] as the board is considering whether to revoke the tech and suspension because the ref may not have had JURISDICTION once game was over and they were off of the court. I just physically need the rules, and I can’t find the rules anywhere on the internet.

Sorry to bother, but if I have the high school rules, which govern in Florida, that may help—so if you know anyone who has a copy and will provide and scan those specific rules, much appreciated.



These are the rule numbers that were cited by them, but not the rule itself:

Rule 2.2 article 4 with respect to officials jurisdiction. Page 15.


Rule 10-4 bench technical. Article 1a. Page 62.


Page 72 technical foul penalty summary. See Assistant Coach and Head Coach at bottom two grids of chart.

Anybody who has copies, please provide to me at [email protected]

Thanks for any help!!

Normally I would welcome you to the Forum counselor (yes, your email address told me and everybody else that you are a lawyer), BUT:

You had NO BUSINESS approaching the officials after the game. I don't care if your team won or lost, or if you thought the officials were the greatest you had ever seen, or the worst you had ever seen. If I had been one of the officials I would have told you to keep moving or I would call 911. The officials really had no rule support for whacking but that didn't give you the right to get some cheap shots in.

If you really wanted to let them know how you felt that you should have been a man and given them your cheap shots during the game so you would have received the TF's you deserved. You deserve not being on the bench. If your son can't coach his brother's team, then find another parent who can.

By the way, I have basketball officiating friends in Tampa and Brevard County. Please let me know where you are located so that they can be on the look out for you.

MTD, Sr.

Know your role, coach
 

On top of what MTD said, you have no right to communicate with officials during the game as you were the ASSISTANT COACH & not the HC.

You have quite the history as a coach... AFTER ALL THOSE GAMES YOU'VE COACHED & YOU STILL DONT OWN A RULEBOOK??

Furthermore, a whistle IS NOT required every time a kid falls down or gets hurt!! If the kids dont like contact... GO PLAY TABLE TENNIS!

"Somebodys gonna get hurt" is one of the most stupid comments of All-Time.
The fact of the matter is, we blow our whistle AFTER contact that results in adv/dis. We dont blow just BEFORE an injury may occur & pause the action.

Had you stayed in your lane, you would still be in the game :rolleyes:

Wait a second ????????
 

Do you go to court (your job) not knowing the law????? Then why did you go into this game and not know the rules of basketball????

Game was over you won be happy.......

Sir you are not qualified to comment on the officiating, just like I would

have no business to comment on your ability to represent......

"Simply"? Idiot.

Maybe the officials thought it was the worst coached game they had ever seen. Only difference is that they kept their thoughts to themselves!

With all of that coaching experience I am surprised you don't have Div 1 and NBA teams beating a path to your door with contract offers

Oh... and it looks like your a personal injury <s>leach</s> er, lawyer. I bet you were handing out cards to everyon after that game, what with all the injuries and all....

(Emphasis mine)

Since your attorney gig apparently doesn't pay you enough to spend $8ish on a rulebook, here's the relevant part.

(Again, emphasis mine)

The officials were still in the visual confines of the playing area, so they still have jurisdiction. End of Story.

Sounds to me like you got what you deserved. And makes me want to buy those officials a beer.

IT IS A FREAKIN 6TH GRADE GAME, GET THE HECK OVER IT!!!!!

Dude no one really cares honestly. I am sure the kids will forget after you get them ice cream. Give it a break. I do not care if you are a lawyer, a doctor or a janitor, get some perspective in life. These are after all just games. And I doubt in your real job that if someone did not like your job, they would have the right to get in your face and say you were the worst at that profession. And I am sure you would also think someone that was not in your profession was nuts for approaching you like that.

Peace

If after a trial you walked into the judge's chambers univited and told him he is the worst judge you've ever seen in your life would your deed go unpunished?

The best part of this whole thing is that the Original Poster gets to meet with those 6th grade kids and their parents and explain to all of them that they won't be playing in their championship game because he couldn't keep his mouth shut!!:p

The fault is 100% yours, dman. Now "man up" and admit that to these kids and their parents...don't you dare try to blame the loss of their championship game experience on anyone else. Had you kept your mouth shut and left the gym, those kids would be playing again.

Personal Injury Lawyer ..........


A true rat.

Hopefully, someone reports you to the local BAR for your unprofessional conduct.

Counselor, I'm not sure what sort of response you were expecting, but after reading your post and knowing I wasn't the first to respond, the responses were totally predictable and justified.

First of all, I appreciate parents who volunteer to coach. As my kids get older, I recognize that volunteer coaches are hard to come by sometimes, and the time commitment isn't small. But you need perspective.

As spelled out above, the rule is that the officials have jurisdiction until they leave the court. It prevents just the sort of idiocy in which you engaged, dumping on the officials after the final horn. If the league doesn't want this situation to happen, they could provide a locker room for the officials to get away from stupid coaches after the game.

For the record, I would have also had the other team shoot two FTs (unless we couldn't find them) to determine if we were going to play a second OT. If we couldn't find them, my report to the league would include a recommendation to suspend the game pending the shooting of said FTs.

I have some questions for you, though.

1. What in the hell were you still doing near the table five minutes after the game? Frankly, even if the tech weren't justified by rule, you should be suspended anyway for harassing the officials.

2. Why does the team have no coach tonight? Aren't you the assistant coach? Where is the Head Coach?

3. 6th grade rec, makes me wonder; were these refs high school kids? Around here, in a 6th grade rec game, you're as likely to get a varsity veteran as a high school aged rookie. Either way, you have no business approaching them after the game to offer your critique; let alone an insult.

Shut up and take your medicine.

If you have complaints about the officiating, you need to take it up with the league director rather than the officials directly. By taking matters into your own hands, you forfeited any right to complain, IMO.

Look on the bright side.......

You now have have 8 potential clients :rolleyes:

Still trying to figure out how an official's whistle after the play would have prevented the injuries or crying? :confused:

I see crying all the time when kids think there should have been a whistle. It's normally accompanied by coach's whining, though.

I saw a kid cry one time because the opponent was playing defense on him. Kids cry when they don't play too, so it has nothing to do with anything an official does and stupid people like this guy actually think it somehow is a correlation. Heck if the kids played on a tile floor, I am sure anytime they fell they were crying too. ;)

Peace

He needs to get hired by Ginoboli and Parker.

Check out his firm's website: Coral Springs Injury Lawyer - Fort Lauderdale Accident Attorney - Pembroke Pines Personal Injury Lawyer

MTD, Sr.


P.S. And did I mention he was a Flordia Super Lawyer in 2010 and 2-11.

+1

That should make logical sense...even to a lawyer.

That depends if they are the Plaintiff or Defense attorney. :)

Peace

How much you want to bet that the back row in that picture find him totally repulsive

There it is, Coach.

You made the wrong choices in how you handled your objections. (BNR had the perfect analogy in going into a judge's chambers.) Had you walked off the court, found a game supervisor (be it right then or later), and expressed your viewpoints to him/her, there's no way you could have earned a technical foul and extended the game. The officials on the court don't care how many times you have been T'd up or tossed in the past; it's all about your behavior within their jurisdiction at that time.

Incidentally, the "rule itself" are indeed the rules that were cited to you. My best suggestion is for you to learn from this experience (we're all never too old to learn), and arrange for another volunteer coach -- for the kids' sake.

Dear DMAN:

First, let me thank you for creating the most entertaining thread I have read on this discussion board since...I can't remember when.

Second, I believe you got the answer to your question about the officials jurisdiction. Are you still considering approaching the board about your suspension? I think, as my peers have so eloquently pointed out, you would be well advised to serve your suspension and just let it go. Maybe consider being a good sport here, instead of a lawyer.

Third, who are the women standing behind you on your web page and why are they there?

And last..I also live in Florida. What's a Super Lawyer? Seems like an oxymoron.

Yes, the officials were 100% correct in assessing a technical foul and ejecting you. An official's jurisdiction does not end until the entire officiating crew has left the visual confines of the gymnasium. Whether it's making a correction to the score book or assessing a technical foul to a coach of player, the officials are within the rules.

NFHS 2-2-4
The jurisdiction of the officials' is terminated and the final score has been approved when all officials leave the visual confines of the playing area.

Three examples, with the first one applying to you.

2.2.4 SITUATION A: The score is Team A-62 and Team B-61 when the horn sounds to end the fourth quarter. Prior to the referee's approval of the final score, the coach of Team A directs obscene gestures at the officials.
RULING: A technical foul is charged and the result of the free throws will determine which team wins or whether an extra period is required. (5-6-2 Exception 4; 10-4-1c)

2.2.4 SITUATION B: The final horn sounds to end the game with a score of 64-61. Immediately following the horn to end the fourth quarter, the officials are moving off the court toward a door to their dressing room. The referee enters the door and is in the hallway to the locker room, but the umpire is still in the court area when he/she notices the scorer frantically trying to get the officials' attention due to a possible scorebook error. RULING: Since one of the officials has not left the visual confines of the playing area, the game jurisdiction has not ended. The officials may work with scorer's table personnel to rectify any errors.

2.2.4 SITUATION C: Team B leads by a point with seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A1 releases the ball on a try, but the noise level makes it difficult for the covering official (umpire) to hear the horn. The umpire signals a successful goal. The referee definitely hears the horn before A1 releases the ball, but does not realize the umpire counted the goal. The officials leave the visual confines of the playing area and are not aware of the controversy until the scorer comes to the officials' dressing room.
RULING: Even though the referee could have canceled the score if the officials had conferred before leaving, once the officials leave the visual confines of the playing area, the final score is official and no change can be made. In situations such as this, it is imperative that officials communicate with each other and that they do not leave until any problem regarding scoring or timing has been resolved.

On a personal note, I too would have assessed the technical and ejected you from the game. You have no business approaching officials after a game. Also, you have no business addressing officials during the game. Assistant coaches are to be seen and not heard. Watch the Heat-Celtics tonight. You will see the head coaches addressing the officials, not assistants.

You have no one to blame but yourself for your son's team not having a coach tonight. You thought you'd be a big man and get your shots in after the game was over. Coaches like you are exactly why this rule exists. I hope you learned a lesson.

Here's wondering whether you will share this rule and these case plays since I'm sure you wan to coach. Man up and do the right thing. No matter how bad you think they were, you were wrong.

As a die hard Spurs fan that hurt !!!!!

Hot, Yes, Single ???, Moms ???
 

Bad Zebra: I believe that you are confusing The Official Forum with Match.com.

Coach, I guess it never crossed your mind that these officials were quite certain of their authority to assess the second technical. Apparently they are continuing to show you their knowledge of the rules well after the game and into the next few days.

Take this for the lesson that it is and show a bit more respect for the officials at the next game. Or at least at the next game for which, by rule, you will be allowed on the bench.

Frankly if I find out who these officials were I plan to send them a gift certificate to Morton's with my compliments.

Barring a Miami loss tonight, this may be the best entertainment of the evening.

Part of me thinks this has to be a gag post because I can't believe a non-official would post something on an officiating forum that says he harassed a crew during and after a game (when it still had jurisdiction) and wants to know what the crew did wrong.

If it's a real post: sir, you may not have noticed but 6th graders fall down when the wind blows too hard. If you've coached as long as you say you must know by now that not all contact is a foul. It even says as much in the rule book.

6th graders also cry. Heck, I had a girls' H.S. JV city seminfinal game this year where a player started crying because she had her shot blocked three times in a row.

To echo my officiating brethren: take your punishment and find the kids a coach so they can play their game. After all, it's about them.

C is always the right anwer
 

The only way you dont lose this appeal is if

A. you dont give the league the rules you learned today in this forum

B. there are special for your league that override the NFHS book in regards to jurisdiction

C. Jeff van Gundy is league commisioner

I want to reiterate something. Even if the officials had left the court and returned by the time you gave your two bits', I would have fully expected a suspension for your actions. Anything short, and I (along with any of the assigners I work with) would have stopped working this particular league.

Do yourself a favor, find out who assigns these games and ask them what you need to do to get assigned some of these games. Then do it and actually work some 6th grade rec games.

What did you expect to accomplish with your comments?

Here's the thing. This crew is doing these games for one of two reasons:
1. To give the kids a chance to play.
2. To get better at officiating.

I work summer games for #2. Tomorrow, I'll be driving over 50 miles round trip for $30 and three games. It's not for the money; it's because I care about getting better. An assistant coach's comments aren't going to make me care more or try harder.

First off, I want to nominate this for post of the year. This continues to be the most entertaining post of the year.

My comment is that 'coaches' like this are what cause some refs to give it up because it is no longer worth doing. Some guys just max out on the BS and stop enjoying it and give it up and this is why. For most of us it is not about the money and if you don't enjoy it why do it?

It was me!!! It was me!!! I love Morton's. ;)

EDIT: Any chance we are getting spoofed by someone who has a beef with the OP?

Before reading any of the responses, I just want to say two things:

1. The Original Post is the funniest online post, on any subject I have ever read, AND

2. I haven't anticipated anything as much as I'm looking forward to the responses.

+1

Well said, BNR!

I am :confused: as to why DMan has not responded to any of our suggestions, :p.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. I guess I will have to write him a nice letter this Sunday morning.

I wrote him an email (he asked), and he politely responded that he'd like to move on.

Already fired off a letter-to-the-editor at the Sun-Sentinel......

Doubtful they do anything with it.

Not suprised he did not mention anything about an apology to the officials involved.

Hahahahahahahaha!!

Is that "lawyer speak" for "I just got my a$$ handed to me and I didn't like it"???:D

I believe that's ANYONE'S speak for that!

Amazing, isn't it, how this clown "just wants to move on" after being humiliated on an internet message board, but originally saw no problem with trying to humiliate game officials, who I'm sure "just wanted to move on" after dealing with this clown for an entire game?

Hmmmmmm, Snaqs...you usually seem pretty insightful, but I gotta tell you "reason" #2 wouldn't be one of MY reasons for doing 6th grade ball.

When an official is just getting started officiating...you bet...but, I don't really think a veteran official is going to "get better" doing 6th grade ball....they may even pick up some bad habits if they are not careful.

Maybe, #3. To do my assignor a favor.;)

Yeah, good point. I had a recent fan encounter following a summer league varsity girls game in mind when I wrote that.
Your option should have been added, especially for veterans who don't need to see more ball from behind a whistle.

#4: To make some cash in the off-season.

Why are you complaining? The officials have no control about how the players play. At the 6th grade level, they can not and will not respond effectively to any calls.

How about YOU teaching your kids to play basketball!

That should be #1. At least that is the case here. You go to camps to get better honestly.

Peace

Not at $10-15 per game. Driving 50 miles (round trip) to work two or three games at that rate, I could make more cash at Burger King.