You Make The Call: Pass And Crash

[Scrapper1]

Block, not sure about the basket. Hard to tell if he started the motion. Probably would give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter.

[JugglingReferee]

Block and count it.

[bainsey]

I see things differently here. What did the defender do wrong?

[canuckrefguy]

Block. No basket.

Defender moved into the passer.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Block. No basket.

Defender moved into the passer.

And, since the passer was moving and didn't have the ball, the defender had to be in his path with time/distance.

[APG]

Personally, I don't think the contact warranted a foul.

[Lotto]

I looked at this frame by frame. When the defender comes into view, the offensive player still has the ball and the defender has LGP - two feet down and facing the dribbler, who still has the ball so no time and distance applies. From that moment on, the defender retreats a half step and then straightens up. So, this looks to me like either a no call or a charge.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Block, not sure about the basket. Hard to tell if he started the motion. Probably would give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter.

Keep in mind that the ball has to be released by the shooter (not simply starting the act of shooting) when a teammate commits a foul in order for the basket to count.

If you think about it, the timing of these type of plays almost NEVER allows for this basket to count.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Block, not sure about the basket. Hard to tell if he started the motion. Probably would give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter.

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Keep in mind that the ball has to be released by the shooter (not simply starting the act of shooting) when a teammate commits a foul in order for the basket to count.

If you think about it, the timing of these type of plays almost NEVER allows for this basket to count.

Except (if you have a block), the foul is by an opponent of the shooter and the cutoff point is being in the act, not the release.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Except (if you have a block), the foul is by an opponent of the shooter and the cutoff point is being in the act, not the release.

How'bout we just focus on the topic of this thread, the corresponding video in OP, and assume that is what my post was commenting on?

When we get to a discussion of block/charge, I'll agree with you on the exception to the Dead Ball rule.....

For the purposes of this thread...I'll repeat myself: the ball handler who makes a pass (in a pass-n-crash plays) virtually ALWAYS commits the foul before the receiver of his pass releases the ball. You will almost never count the basket in this type of play.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

How'bout we just focus on the topic of this thread, the corresponding video in OP, and assume that is what my post was commenting on?

When we get to a discussion of block/charge, I'll agree with you on the exception to the Dead Ball rule.....

For the purposes of this thread...I'll repeat myself: the ball handler who makes a pass (in a pass-n-crash plays) virtually ALWAYS commits the foul before the receiver of his pass releases the ball. You will almost never count the basket in this type of play.

Except he did not commit the foul, the defender did. So, my comment was about the video in the OP. The shot counts if the foul occurs after the receiver of the pass has started his act of shooting.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Except he did not commit the foul, the defender did. So, my comment was about the video in the OP. The shot counts if the foul occurs after the receiver of the pass has started his act of shooting.

this few series of posts is a classic example of what happens on a message board....usually it's two different people both "arguing" their point of view....and they don't realize that they are each right...yet continue arguing for many pages....

If I were the Lead in this game (or the center), I would have called a team control foul on the passer. Shot not released prior to the foul, therefore no basket.

If you were the Lead in this gme (or the center), you would have called a blocking foul on the defender. If you deemed the foul to have occurred AFTER the natural shooting motion began, then you would count the basket.

We each have the rule interpretation right....we just disagree on the blocking foul.

IMHO, this is a pretty clear-cut team control foul on the passer. They could put the video of this play next to this rule in the online rule book as the "gold standard".

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

this few series of posts is a classic example of what happens on a message board....usually it's two different people both "arguing" their point of view....and they don't realize that they are each right...yet continue arguing for many pages....

If I were the Lead in this game (or the center), I would have called a team control foul on the passer. Shot not released prior to the foul, therefore no basket.

If you were the Lead in this gme (or the center), you would have called a blocking foul on the defender. If you deemed the foul to have occurred AFTER the natural shooting motion began, then you would count the basket.

We each have the rule interpretation right....we just disagree on the blocking foul.

IMHO, this is a pretty clear-cut team control foul on the passer. They could put the video of this play next to this rule in the online rule book as the "gold standard".

Fair enough...but your reply to whether the shot should count was to a post (that you quoted) ruling that it was a block...so that was the context. I can't read you mind if you want to flip the call without saying so.

As for it being clear cut, I called it a block because the defender stuck their shoulder out moved into the passer.

How can I tell? The directions the two players go after contact. The passer was deflected 90 degrees towards the sideline. The defender went mostly straight back but also slightly towards the sideline. The only way that happens is if the defender was moving towards the sideline at the time of contact AND into the side of the passer. The passer didn't go through the defender. If the passer had gone through the defender, the defender would have been knocked the opposite direction of the passer....certainly not in the same direction.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Keep in mind that the ball has to be released by the shooter (not simply starting the act of shooting) when a teammate commits a foul in order for the basket to count.

If you think about it, the timing of these type of plays almost NEVER allows for this basket to count.

Scrapper says he has a block on this play, so how would the release be relevant to your response to him?

[Toren]

I got a block, basket is good.

Hated the mechanic by the lead, loved the hold on the mechanic by the C.

Now college rules are different than high school rules in how we adjudicate (if the call had been as I described?)?

Good play.