Changing an incorrect call
 

Has anybody here ever called a b/c violation or an OOB violation, but quickly realized it was the wrong line? I'm assuming we can say IW & give the correct team the ball back in those senarios.
Just like we do if a coach says "five out" & we mistakingly grant a timeout.

How about a situation where we call a goaltending but in reality he whiffed at the ball but did not touch it... he just hit the glass.

Wondering if we can use the same principles in this situation to make it right OR is that one we have to eat. Thoughts??

Yes...wrong line....IW. Until you put the ball back in play, you can fix it by giving it to the team that had control (or possession) of the ball at the time of the IW.

As for the GT, if you realize you got it wrong, the only thing you can do is go to the arrow since no team has control (assuming it missed).

How about the GT?

I once had a conversation with someone who said they felt they could use the correctable error rule to remedy and inproper GT call.

I too was thinking about applying it to a CE (erroneously counting or canceling a score).

Most officials that I've spoken with say no, that CE only applies to a 2 or a 3 point basket.

What became of your conversation?

I'm having trouble understanding how this scenario played out.

The Defender tried to block the shot but missed and the referee blew his whistle thinking it was a GT?

I certainly don't think you can use a CE for this type of error. CE's don't give us to ability to correct an incorrect violation.

I think you just have to eat this one. IW would apply.

You have the situation correct... it was an attempted block off the glass after the ball already hit the glass (mens league with college & pro rules).

On the quick steal fastbreak (old L new T) I saw the ball hit the glass, less than a second later a 6'9" defender flies out of nowhere & beats the glass up. I thought he hit the ball too, obviously I was wrong.

If CEs "dont give us the ability to correct an IC violation" why is it that we can fix a b/c when we get our lines mixed up by going with an IW & POI?

I'm not getting where your issue is here, so please walk me through the rest of what happened...

You hit the whistle and reported GT to the table and told them to count the basket? Then your partner came to you with information? Or you hit the whistle and then realized the defender whiffed and so never reported to the table?

Walk me through what happened and why you are not sure how to handle it correctly, please.

A CE is specificially 5 types of errors. That doesn't mean there aren't other errors we can't fix, but we just don't call them CE's. Like a record keeping error, we can fix those but we don't call them Correctable Errors, even though in reality they are errors that we can correct.

I'm thinking in your GT situation, you can also go IW & POI, but don't explain it as a CE because that's not accurate.

So if the shot still went in, you have POI at the endline. If the shot didn't, you go arrow.

It was a few years ago with an NCAA-W female official so it was a situation she never had to deal with but her logic was that it falls under erroneously crediting a basket. Forgot how the convo ended and I've never had anybody else bring up that interpretation.

From the NFHS case book
 

It's not the exact situation from the OP but it does show we can correct situations regarding BI. The question is would it be too much of a strtech to think we can correct situations regarding inadvertent GT calls as well.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say we can but I'd also say we shouldn't make a habit of it.

Toren, why wouldn't CE be accurate. 2-10-1e says "Erroneously counting or canceling a score." That's what this is, isn't it?

And A.R. 24 is the same as the NFHS case play.

NCAA-M has the following note with 2-12-1:
Note: In order for this to be a correctable error, the official must have erred in counting or canceling a successful try for goal according to a rule (i.e., after basket interference or goaltending, incorrectly counting or failing to cancel a score or counting a three-point goal instead of a two-point goal). A correctable error does not involve an error in judgment.

So it appears the CE rule only applies for GT or BI if the official fails to properly award or cancel a score after making GT/BI call. So A1 shoots, B1 goaltends, official blows whistle for GT call but doesn't direct scorer to award 2 points.

+1

Yes. Never had that situation & unsure if this falls under a CE.

Thx!

I read 2.10.1 K before I posted here & the difference is that BI actually occured here, in mine it didnt. My partner said it was nothing we could do now (wondering why he came to me) I said didnt I erroneously count a basket. He said this didnt fit a CE... :confused:

And yes sir, I dont want to make that mistake again. Another reason why 3 trumps 2 IMO. The steal happened at mid-court, I was already setup on the endline as L by the time the play happened I was just crossing midcourt & it was on my side of the court (possibly straightlined) the C would have a great look. GTs & BIs on my opposite side are easier to see than the ones that happen on the same side that I'm on.

Okay, so much for my trip to the limb. What NCAA says is if you mess up in calling the BI/GT you can't take it back. That seems reasonable.

Ok so its not a CE... could we go IW & make it right like the IC b/c play or is it one we have to eat like giving the ball to the wrong team & realizing it after the throw-in has ended??

No, the fact that you erroneously counted the score does make it a CE. Fix it and move on.

Ok thats all I'm looking for... we CAN fix it?

What would there be to correct? (Assuming you haven't already counted it and moved on).

If the ball went in, it was an inadvertent whistle during a try, the try counts on its own.

If the ball didn't go in, there is nothing to correct. Nothing scored.

Shot went up but missed, referee blows whistle, counts the basket with GT as his reason.

Partner tells him he didn't hit the ball and only the glass.

Correctable, but not a CE. And you must correct it before the ball is put back in play. Until you move on, ANY call you make is still fixable if you realize it is wrong.

Under NBA rules, you could have a goaltend if the hitting of the backboard caused the ball to take an unnatural bounce.

As far as what you can do after the whistle, consider like you would any other IW...tell the table it wasn't a goaltend, explain to the coaches why you're changing the call, if a basket was made, the POI will would be a unrestricted throw-in for the opponent. If their was no basket and no team control, go to a jump ball at center court by any two opponents and reset the shot clock to 24 seconds (if you're playing with pro rules, as you said it was a mix) or go to the possession arrow.

Agreed. I think I said that in post 9 :D

Erroneously counting a score is not a CE???

Really?

Might want to check out 2-10-1-e and 2.10.1.k

The error was in making an incorrect judgement call, not in counting the score. After you put the ball in play, you can't go back and decide it wasn't goaltending. That means it is not a CE.

A CE is calling goaltending, and incorrectly applying the score that is a result of the goaltending. You have the CE window to go back and fix the scoring part of the penalty, not to change the call itself.

Also, if before the ball is in play and after you've awarded the basket, you decide it was not goaltending, you NOW have a CE situation and can fix that until the CE window expires.

For a similar type of ruling, look up the case play that involves a throwin with 0.3 seconds on the clock going into halftime where the official counts the shot....the NFHS says this is not a correctable error. The result is an incorrectly counted score, but he error was in not recognizing that time expired before the shot was released, not in counting the score.

Oh good God...that is exactly what tref had happen in the OP. So the rest of your post is simply more posturing.

In honor of JR - Lah me.

Huh???? What the heck are you talking about? I had no idea who said what several posts back. I don't reread the thread every time I visit the site.

Casebook Always "Trumps" Written Rule ...
 

I hate that interpretation.

(Help. I can't find the casebook play. Can someone please post it.)

The entire thread is about a play where the official thought GT occurred and blew his whistle and counted the basket. He was asking if it was a CE.

You say "No, it's not" but then later post "but if this happens then it is."

Which is what tref originally asked about.

Is it all clearer now?:D

The POINT was that if the original situation was a CE, you'd have the typical CE correction window to decide you blew the goaltending call. You don't. It is NOT a CE. You have a much shorter time to decide the call was wrong. But once you no longer have GT and only the status of the basket remains, that part is a CE....and the points can be corrected in the normal CE window.

And he was asking about it, how is explaining why it is posturing?

It seems to me the only way this qualifies as a CE is the following:

1. Official whistles and reports defensive GT/BI and awards two points.
2. Partner approaches official and gives him more information.
3. Official informs everyone that the GT call was not correct, but forgets to take away that awarded score.

Now you have a CE that can be fixed during the CE time frame.

Otherwise, if the official doesn't change his call before the ball is put in play after the award, it's too late. It's not a CE.

So all in all, bottom line is that it can be changed before the next live ball??

Yes.

So what are your thoughts about 2.10.1.k that say that erroneously awarding points due to BI is a CE and the timeframe for CE's does apply?

In that case, the call was correct and unchanged, only the application of the penalty (awarding or canceling of the points) was incorrect....thus, it is a CE.....not the situation we have here where the call itself is what is in error.

This is no different than calling an infraction for OOB and then realizing after the other team has the ball that you had the wrong line (or called the wrong color)....too late to fix it.

Again, once an infraction is called, you only have until the ball is subsequently made live to declare it an IW, even if the penalty for the infraction may result in points awarded/canceled. The actual error was calling the infraction.

This:

Also, would you apply CE here:

1. Block/charge situation, U1 calls a block, counts the basket, and awards one FT.
2. A1 misses the FT and B3 gets the rebound but throws it OOB.
3. During the dead ball, U2 informs the official that A1 traveled prior to the block. U1 wants to change his call.

No, because the official did not erroneously count a score, as tref did in his original post. Two very different things.

While I agree with you on your response to Snaqwells' play, you're still missing the point. In the OP by tref, he didn't erroneously count a score. He erroneously called GT (which is no different than erroneously calling any other violation). The ramifications of GT was the counting of the score, but that wasn't the error that was made.

The CE rule only applies when the points awarded are contrary to the call that was made.....as in 2.10.1.k.

My point was that tref's situation was an erroneously called violation. I could change my play to indicate the official called the travel (blowing the whistle while the shot was in the air) and wanted to take it back after the ensuing throw-in. He erroneously cancelled a score, just as tref's situation involved an erroneously awarded score. Neither is CE.

The only part that's eligible for CE treatment is the penalty enforcement, not the judgment call itself.

Hmmm...I believe I see the point. Thanks. I will not make that mistake again.

What's with the attitude? You've gone side ways a few times lately. Not like you.

Not A Correctable Error ...
 

2010 - 2011 NFHS Interpretations

SITUATION 1: Three-tenths of a second remain on the clock in the second quarter. A1’s throw-in is “caught” by A2, released on a try, and the officials count the basket. The coaches do not protest, the officials do not confer and all participants head to their respective locker rooms. Upon returning to the court with three minutes remaining in the intermission, the opposing coach asks the officials if the basket should have counted since the ball was clearly caught and released with three-tenths of a second on the clock. The officials realize their error at this point. RULING: The goal counts; this is not a correctable-error situation as described in Rule 2-10. (2-10; 5-2-5)

Thanks for finding this and posting this caseplay BillyMac. You are most helpful, and, by the way, you're quite handsome.

Not sure what you mean...just admitted I was wrong about this play. I now own that rule - as I do many others because of the same sort of thing.

Jumped on you earlier in this thread because I thought YOU were wrong and just wouldn't admit it...turns out I was wrong there too.

Life sucks sometimes.:o

Ok, sorry,....looked a lot like sarcasm. :eek: :o